Disc is fail boat in a raid setting

Priest
Although there might be some fights in the future where single target healing needs lets Disc shine with its current condition (to contribute barely anything other than some save-your-butt burst at a few points during a fight)...the mana regen issues are horrific. This spec is fine for five man normals/basic heroics and might be acceptable for PVP, but for raiding, it's not happening. I'm a competent healer and I can only milk approximately 80% or slightly less than the average healing that my fellow raiders are able to achieve. It is absolutely related to the regen issues and the lack of any large meaningful heals.

Spirit shell has a 1 min CD???

Atonement barely makes a dent in dps or hps?

The mana regen and dps from Solace is low?

Disc doesn't get a form of DH?

Why do we still share PoMs with Holy instead of a Disc version?

And why does the Halo increase healing far from the center instead of the reverse? Think about it: during burst damage it is extremely common for raids to stack for aoe healing. Every other class/spec with an aoe heal benefits from the group being clustered. But this heal, no, if we want it to be the most effective, I would have to run about 20 yards away from my raid members, exposing myself to damage, and pop my halo so that they get the most benefit...

There might be some future fights where this isn't true, but for now, a 40 k cost heal that isn't viable in most fights is absurd.

Blizz, I am disappoint.

*ETA I am fine with working hard and having to put in more effort to make a class viable for raiding, I felt like this was true for Cata. There were some fights where it seemed like Disc would be useless, but I generally found a way to rotate spells and contribute meaningfully to healing the raid, every DS fight. This is just ridiculous though.
All of these issues have been addressed and ignored in beta. They don't plan on making any changes, level your resto druid.
Not trying to be critical here, and I acknowledge your demonstrated skill and enjoyment of hard mode raiding from Cata... but, I think you're gemming/chanting wrong for beginning MoP. Your spirit seems much too low. And probably also expecting too much bang for your (& mine) gear level.

I don't know that I'm doing it perfect or anything, but with HoU running, I'm above 7500 spirit, not even counting spirit flask and spirit buff food. Coupled with rapture working based on Spirit, I just don't see how focusing on Intellect at this point makes sense.

If my PoH/GH starts having very low % overheal, then I think it might be time to move out of spirit.

ps... Love Halo... I've managed to wipe my group and kill myself lots of times with it already.
Not trying to be critical here, and I acknowledge your demonstrated skill and enjoyment of hard mode raiding from Cata... but, I think you're gemming/chanting wrong for beginning MoP. Your spirit seems much too low. And probably also expecting too much bang for your (& mine) gear level.

I don't know that I'm doing it perfect or anything, but with HoU running, I'm above 7500 spirit, not even counting spirit flask and spirit buff food. Coupled with rapture working based on Spirit, I just don't see how focusing on Intellect at this point makes sense.

If my PoH/GH starts having very low % overheal, then I think it might be time to move out of spirit.

check the world of logs.. see were discipline is at
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/hps/
ps... Love Halo... I've managed to wipe my group and kill myself lots of times with it already.


check the world of logs.. see were disicpline is at
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/hps/
re: WoL, looking at "The Stone Guard"

I see the average of the top 40 holy palis at about 55k HPS, and disc priests at about 40k HPS. Were people expecting something different? I think this is working as intended, and it was certainly no secret, so if you wanted high throughput on the leader-board, why bring your disc priest to 90. If I wanted to be #1 on our board (when we get around to raiding), I'd have leveled my slimy, ore stained dwarf pali first; or maybe my druid. But they both sit at 85, and will only level accidentally.

Have holy palis ever NOT been overwhelming hps at the early part of an expansion? Maybe my memory is just failing me though on that.

None of that addresses my point though, that the OP is unhappy with regen, but is gemming and enchanting for throughput.
Will of the emperor has a paladin as a top healer with 48k HPS. From this early stage, 12 paladins had recorded completed this boss, and the lowest amoung then its a 28k HPS paladin.
Now.. we have one discipline priest who recorded the log of this boss, and he did 24k HPS.

So.. do u think this is normal ? Do u think that much diference its ok ?
re: WoL, looking at "The Stone Guard"

I see the average of the top 40 holy palis at about 55k HPS, and disc priests at about 40k HPS. Were people expecting something different? I think this is working as intended, and it was certainly no secret, so if you wanted high throughput on the leader-board, why bring your disc priest to 90. If I wanted to be #1 on our board (when we get around to raiding), I'd have leveled my slimy, ore stained dwarf pali first; or maybe my druid. But they both sit at 85, and will only level accidentally.

Have holy palis ever NOT been overwhelming hps at the early part of an expansion? Maybe my memory is just failing me though on that.

None of that addresses my point though, that the OP is unhappy with regen, but is gemming and enchanting for throughput.


I guess my question is - do you have experience raiding as a disc priest in a 25 (or even 10) setting yet? I think you need to experience it first before telling people off.

I agree the OP really needs to be spirited oriented. But you coming out and more or less saying "roll something else if you want to top charts" doesn't really say much outside of 'QQ accept life". There used to be a time where discs were top or near top of the charts when taking in absorbs just because of how absorbs work. But right now even with absorbs, we're fighting to not be bottom - which we usually are. I don't think OP is wanting to be a chart topping healer.

I don't think fixing regen ALONE will help. We'll have better longevity but I think some of our spells really needs to be tweaked and well, FIXED.
I'm personally loving disc, and the way it works. I've only done Sha of Anger, but I topped the meter on it with pretty much atonement, halo, and shields. All while pumping out 25k dps.

That being said, I don't expect to top meters as disc purely because of the dps we provide and the lack of smart raid heals. I still think Disc is going to serve a really important 3rd healer slot role that not only provides great tank mitigation, but also a noticeable amount of damage.

I can't wait to start raiding with it, I love instancing with it so far.

My main request for disc is to have Mastery affect Atonement in someway.
I'm not telling anyone off.

I'm just wondering if people were expecting something different.

I knew as soon as the changes to the spec design happened that I would never be able to compete, HPS wise, against pali's and druids.

Would I love the devs to change their minds and allow disc to be closer to the middle of the pack HPS wise? Sure. Do I expect it to happen, nope. It seems clear enough to me that design intent is that we are supposed to be rock bottom HPS.

As to raid experience, the VERY FIRST THING I wrote was acknowledging the OP's raid experience superiority. I think though, in this particular case, the OP's experience is working against them a bit; we want to believe in throughput and int, but I think we have to let that go in order to be at least a little bit useful to our raid.
Would I love the devs to change their minds and allow disc to be closer to the middle of the pack HPS wise? Sure. Do I expect it to happen, nope. It seems clear enough to me that design intent is that we are supposed to be rock bottom HPS

< why is intent to keep us in the botton ? this cannot be.. it must be a design flaw, they would had nothing to gain with this..
Someone has to be on the bottom.

Being the spec that has been chosen to be on the bottom doesn't imply malevolence or incompetence on the part of the ones making the selection.

But again, I have to fall back to my question, how is this a surprise to anyone?

You honestly didn't expect palis and druids to be on the bottom, did you?
Someone has to be on the bottom, this is true.

But not by a mile and a half. Technically everyone should be relatively close to each other in terms of output and mana, and the 'bottom' should be rotated between everyone fight/RNG depending. Having one single class consistently bottoming out by a large margin is never intended and simply says something needs fixing.

If what you are saying is that we as priests should be content with being the bottom by a mile and a half, constantly, because "it is the way it should be". then I highly suggest you to store your defeatist "life sucks, accept it" outlook away and let those who are searching/fighting for a fix, fight for it.
My spirit was on par with a holy priest in my raid and she was not having the same mana regen issues that I was...and her throughput was consistently higher.

Also, I specced into holy last night and ran heroics. The mana regen was sick.

I'm running holy until disc is fixed.

I'm a long time player. I've done it all. I played disc/holy in BC, disc in WotLK, and holy/disc during Cata. I've played pally, shammy, and druid heals.

I am an avid healing player who is noting a genuine problem, just as many other disc priests have voiced their concerns since beta: I am adding mine to the mix.
I was one of the most well geared healers in our 25 man raid last tuesday. We ended up failing due to 2 freshly dinged and non-geared healers ... and me as disc. I tried everything I could. reforged mid raid to try different things.

This is a definite problem. I am bringing a holy spec tonight cause bringing disc is asking my raid to carry me.
10/04/2012 08:15 AMPosted by Zamboozle
If what you are saying is that we as priests should be content with being the bottom by a mile and a half, constantly, because "it is the way it should be". then I highly suggest you to store your defeatist "life sucks, accept it" outlook away and let those who are searching/fighting for a fix, fight for it.


"Content" would be the wrong word. A simple observation of what "is".

And, no this isn't a "life sucks, accept it" exercise, if disc sucks at HPS, and you want to bring high HPS to the table, then obviously you don't go as disc; you could spec holy, or you could bring a pali or druid.

Now, I understand that yall want to fight for disc as a high HPS spec, and I'd love for it to once again be high on HPS; but I honestly think the current extremely low HPS for disc is intentional and a purposeful design choice. Thus, I have to come to the conclusion there is no "fixing" to be done, and fighting for a fix that doesn't exist is pointless. Fight on to change the design intention though.
I was one of the most well geared healers in our 25 man raid last tuesday. We ended up failing due to 2 freshly dinged and non-geared healers ... and me as disc..


I know its kinda hard to look at the logs and start trying to do a real-time what-if; but are you sure that if those two ungeared healers were able to put out their appropriate HPS; that the net of them plus your absorption buffers on HP wouldn't have been more valuable than the extra 10k hps or whatever you going as holy would bring?

I think that is kinda what's going on in the design balancing, the number of times that an absorption buffer was the difference between dead & not-dead is very significant to first kill in the presence of the other healers being at their near optimum HPS. If the designers are seeing a large number of would-have-been-dead-but... they may be very unwilling to give disc competitive HPS *AND* the degree of hp buffering that it currently has.
Disc is the only healer without a raid or a smart heal (atonement doesn't count).

Until we get this, we will not be competitive.
Now, I understand that yall want to fight for disc as a high HPS spec, and I'd love for it to once again be high on HPS; but I honestly think the current extremely low HPS for disc is intentional and a purposeful design choice. Thus, I have to come to the conclusion there is no "fixing" to be done, and fighting for a fix that doesn't exist is pointless. Fight on to change the design intention though.


I cannot tell if you are deliberately trying to troll, or just simply not...I got no word for it. Not looking? Not understanding? Perhaps you should at least try to do a few raids first before saying "this is the way it should be".

If you are talking about HPS as 'raw healing' no absorbs/mitigation, then yes, I can agree with you. Discs shouldn't be top, at all, in that aspect. They have not, and have never been, and probably never will be.

However as of now, even with absorbs (aka damage mitigation), disc priests still fall way, way behind. Normally if you take absorbs into account, they are middle of the pack (or high up fight depending). It has been that way for a while.

You can argue that stuff like Barrier cannot be gauged since there is no HPS measurement for it. And yes, raids have known to 'carry' a disc priest just for that one raid CD. But as of now, other healers/tanks also have raid damage reduction CDs they can use to replace/substitute barrier, AND they can put out more 'raw' healing than a disc priest+absorbs.

That, and if you would look at the many logs and pictures posted, you will find that mana is a currently a major problem and is limiting the absorb/mitigation capability of disc priests as is. You will also find that with the current horribly clunky mechanics, a disc priest cannot even USE/ROTATE their CDs properly without overlapping/tripping/wasting over their own spells.

I cannot even begin to fathom how you can think that 'this is intended'.

We're not asking to be top HPS, we're asking to not be a) miles behind when everything is taken into account and b) fix us so we don't have to monitor 12+ CDs every fight WITH boss mechanics and movement struggling to stay at 35k when the monk that's rofling with 75k hps is pushing 2 buttons.

I don't think that's asking a lot.
10/04/2012 12:58 PMPosted by Zamboozle
I cannot tell if you are deliberately trying to troll, or just simply not...I got no word for it. Not looking? Not understanding? Perhaps you should at least try to do a few raids first before saying "this is the way it should be".


I'm pretty sure I never used the word "should".

I am observing how it is.

I am using some deductive reasoning and coming to the conclusion that this is how they intend for the spec to function.

And no, I'm not trolling. I'm having a conversation. I do understand what yall are saying, I just disagree in that yall think this is an accident, a mistake, or error. If it is an accident on the part of design, then a "fix" becomes possible, or even trivial as you can just tweak up the scaling of mastery for disc. Which begs the question, since it is so easy to fix, if it is a mistake, why didn't it get fixed.

My conclusion is, this low HPS performance is intentional.

That is not a SHOULD. We SHOULD be allowed to be close to competitive HPS. But those that made the rules do not want us to be competitive, or even close to it.
10/04/2012 12:37 PMPosted by Gavinel
I was one of the most well geared healers in our 25 man raid last tuesday. We ended up failing due to 2 freshly dinged and non-geared healers ... and me as disc..


I know its kinda hard to look at the logs and start trying to do a real-time what-if; but are you sure that if those two ungeared healers were able to put out their appropriate HPS; that the net of them plus your absorption buffers on HP wouldn't have been more valuable than the extra 10k hps or whatever you going as holy would bring?

I think that is kinda what's going on in the design balancing, the number of times that an absorption buffer was the difference between dead & not-dead is very significant to first kill in the presence of the other healers being at their near optimum HPS. If the designers are seeing a large number of would-have-been-dead-but... they may be very unwilling to give disc competitive HPS *AND* the degree of hp buffering that it currently has.


Buffering? With Spirit Shell on a one min CD? With expensive spells and low mana regen?

I don't think that their intention was for disc priests to sit around and in between shielding, spam Solace then Smite to pop AA just to provide super fat shields every so often. What a waste of a raid spot....

It could possibly, maaaaaybe make sense, if the dps was even close to justifying the half-heal/half-deeps spec. IT DOESN'T.

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