How to Raid in 5.0-5.1 [Holy/Disc]

Priest
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Great video's twisted and great work on your kills your clearly very skilled!

I have seen you very vocal about priests being ok and not needing attention right now. I cant help but chuckle when your talking about your strat for Feng as holy and planning on dieing and using spirit of redemption even going so far as to plan on glyphing it for next week to leverage it as a tool to down these bosses.

Do you think its ok to say priest have to DIE to be viable and ok?


Haha, well, we are essentially 9 manning these encounters. Armory some of my other raiders, we're still settling our roster. I'm not trying to say that dying is an option. But I am trying to call attention to it as a last resort strategy that a lot of holy priests tend to forget about. And I'm more looking into using the glyph next week because I looked over the log of that fight and it was unjustified to take the glyph circle of healing, so I'll be looking into the death angel glyph next week to replace it. I'm also going to look at glyphing inner sanctum or inner fire as well.

But no, dying should not be part of your general strategy for these encounters. But don't dismiss it either.
Twisted is an amzing priest I enjoy watching his streams. I am not suprised he can down content with his priest. But if I remember correctly he perfers Disc over Holy..so why is he only playing holy? And I have seen logs of prior encounters and he ususally crushes his other healers on the meters. Imagine how non pro priest must be doing who don't have the skill and respect he does with his raid group. No matter what merters do matter and priest will get benched brcause of low HPS compaired to the other healers.
Well, I have had experience on all 6 of the fights on beta, and now on live. My net crashed for our Gar'Jal kill so they brought in another. For Elegon I was sat simply because my class can not even match the HPS that other healing classes can put out which in my case is a Rdruid / Hpal.

As disc preventing damage is all fine and dandy, but you can't prevent it all. And disc simply does not have the tools to have a decent HPS on a raid after their spirit shell bubble is popped. Holy is way behind the other classes as well albeit in a better position than disc is currently in. note that I played both in beta and went through all the fights in the current tier as disc except the final boss.

http://i.imgur.com/4bZCo.jpg

Priest mana regen is amazing in comparison to the other healing classes, over the course of WotE I gained over 300k mana more than the next healer on the list(680k mana in total.) I also had another 1000 spirit, before counting darkglow cloak enchant and the vial of ichorous blood. But I was still scraping by on mana whereas the other healers were fine, and able to put out higher HPS.

This disparity will really start to show when heroic progression starts. I hate to admit it but I am looking towards my shaman as a possible short term solution.
I'm personally far less worried about Holy than I am about Disc. We're seeing Holy Priests up in the ranks on both 10 and 25 man. However, I'm not certain we have the throughput strength to come close to properly matching other classes. Holy isn't a utility spec. We aren't bringing anything truly special to the table, so we must provide strong enough throughput to roughly match the other throughput-heavy specs.

Right now, that's the big question. Is it enough? Will it be enough for hardmodes?

Discipline, on the other hand, isn't raising questions because the answer seems startlingly clear. We're behind, and the difference is gross in most cases. It's not just a feeling of being behind on healing grounds; design-wise, we're a mess.

Disc brings the amazing utility of mitigating damage. Spirit Shell can certainly waylay a good chunk of damage, but it's an expensive task—and we must continue to hard-heal after Spirit Shell has been burst. Beyond SS, too, we've been faltering. PW:Shield is expensive, with Rapture not even coming close to covering it, and lacking in strength appropriate to the cost. Divine Aegis is a ghost right now. I don't know any Disc Priest who had the mana to spare to even begin to want to use it as a pre-shield.

Then we come to one of the major design flaws: SS and Archangel. Archangel does nothing for Spirit Shell, and timing their use around one another is a nightmare. It is literally impossible to use both on cooldown, as needed, without overlap. It shouldn't be a matter of choosing one over the other when both will be strong in a given situation. Spirit Shell is meant to preempt damage; Archangel is meant to allow us burst throughput. If you can preempt that burst with SS, and use Archangel to follow up, you'd be in great shape. You can't, though, not without sacrificing Spirit Shell strength for Evangelism stacks.

It's absolutely possible to remove Archangel without too much grief, as you said in your video. There are also fights (Stone Guard, from my experience) where Spirit Shell just didn't have any real place [note: 25M perspective]. On Feng, however, when you're taking a hard Epicenter/Draw Flame on a predictable timer, the ideal is getting that Shell up and following with hard AA-powered PoH.

The truth is, Disc is a heaping pile of mistakes right now. Blizzard hasn't found a way to keep the mitigation available from becoming overwhelmingly powerful in nerfed or low damage encounters, so we're left to drown in new and very high damage content.
The main issue with priests is not that we can't heal adequately, it's that we cannot match other healing classes equally geared/skilled in terms of throughput and/or spell cost. Yes, logs are not everything, but at the same time I don't expect a 96k hps vs. 53k hps or so (see Feng the accursed for monk vs priest for one of the 25 man logs) between two healing classes, with the top one using 50-60% one button.... I'm not even going to touch disc priests vs the top healing/OP class atm (monks) as disc is in such a bad place atm that I feel sorry for those priests that love disc.

There is definitely an issue when you look at all six encounters and there are 6 priests total out of 240 healers that can rank top 40 (for the 10 man normal). And every single one of the priests that did rank did not have a healing monk in their group.

Just try healing with an average monk, doesn't even have to be amazing, to see what I mean.

I also find it weird that dying is part of your strat...
For Elegon I was sat simply because my class can not even match the HPS that other healing classes can put out which in my case is a Rdruid / Hpal.


I actually didn't experience this on our Elegon attempts* last night that I was also healing with a RDruid and HPal.

*We only got him to like 50% at our best attempt so I obviously can't come to much of a conclusion but I was able to at least match their output for the time we were alive during the fight, if not completely blow them out of the water with Cascade/DH/Lightspring, and their mana wasn't really much better than mine. I switched to Shadow halfway through since it was obvious we weren't making the enrage timer.

**Obviously was healing as Holy, didn't mean to imply that Disc is in a particularly good place.
So tonight's raid was hell fun, and I did the "disc totally owns face!" fight. And, basically, I totally owned face *chuckle*.

On Gara'jal, you can completely take the voodoo doll damage off the encounter table. This is huge, fyi. Binding heal is the best tool for the spirit realm, no question. Coming out of the spirit realm with full mana and a sizable damage boosting buff, I had to laugh at my atonement heals. Seriously, disc is so overpowered on that fight it should be illegal. But that won't show up in the ranked world of logs, further supporting my stance that the entire general community is reading too much into raw hps numbers. This is something the general healer community didn't care about as much once upon a time, so I don't know if the average forum goer as a group is misinformed or if the general wow player is simply more impulsive/close-minded/immature now.

I did the next fight as holy and priest utility for that encounter is just simply the best, and if you watch the video you can hopefully share my enthusiasm.

We did 2 pulls on Elegon without really knowing what we're doing, and I'm leaning towards disc. If the 200k damage he does to the raid when an add explodes is intended, you might see a video of me doing pw:s spam trying to get a fat rapture return when they all pop (yes, that mechanic was back last I checked). For hps, I'll be supporting the group, but I think this Elegon fight is to resto druid as Gara'Jal was to disc priest, so I could care less about how we compare hps wise as long as we're sustaining raid survivability.
I LOOKED AT YOUR LOGS. WOW!!!

AWESOME DUDE!!! YOU RANKED 38TH DISC PRIEST ON STONE GUARD!! THAT MAKES YOU.....

hmmm... 1039th overall

AWESOME DUDE!!! YOU RANKED 16TH HOLY PRIEST ON FENG!! THAT MAKES YOU.....

well... 287th overall.

AWESOME DUDE!!! YOU RANKED 31ST HOLY PRIEST ON FENG!! THAT MAKES YOU.....

I guess 586th overall isn't that bad :)

AWESOME DUDE!!! YOU RANKED 154TH DISC PRIEST ON GARA'JAL!! THAT MAKES YOU.....

umm... well... 1158th overall...

CONGRATULATIONS. YOU WON THE SPECIAL OLYMPICS!!

ISN'T HE CUTE, LOOK AT HOW HARD HE TRIES DESPITE HIS HANDICAP! YOU GO! DONT LET ANYBODY TELL YOU YOU CAN"T!
Your post made me laugh out loud, even though we shouldn't make jokes at the expense of the handicapped.

I could care less about my world rankings. World of logs is a tool, not a contest. I compare my performance with the recorded timers for our kills and match them to the videos I take to accurately look at all of the circumstances that caused me to do something in an encounter. They are not something I'm competing with because every encounter in this tier has some sort of damaging mechanic that you can minimize by execution. Just compare my log of the first encounter and the top log of the first encounter:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/nq41f94zfysjf3gh/analyze/dt/spell/?s=2309&e=2681&target=5
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zfba1g9jojgr0zsh/analyze/dt/spell/?s=6955&e=7292&target=0
Their raid is taking three times the damage from purple puddles compared to mine. This is way not okay, and this log is telling me that the druid who won the hps contest is simply dumping heavy cooldowns into a ton of avoidable raid damage. Putting all class balance aside, it's amazing that the most of top hps logs even finished the encounter.

My postings here aren't to illustrate that I think priests are fine. If we're lobbying disc cd synergy, I'm right there with you. If we're lobbying a shorter chakra stance cd, count me in. If we're lobbying to cheese the world of logs meters in terms of hps...no. Every time I evaluate the encounter, I compare my video footage with the timing on world of logs and looks for areas of improvement. This will often tell me that my reaction timing was too poor or it will reveal something unknown about the encounter. This is the purpose of world of logs; it's not for turning healing into some kind of hps contest. If anything, the current rankings tell me that this tier is favoring too much passive/smart healing because a priest's healing arsenal takes a higher degree of precision to use. They also tell me that the stigma started in beta when classes were horribly bugged has swayed the popular opinion of an entire playerbase.

I'm sharing all of my vids and strategy to help people who are struggling, and I regularly contribute to shed some light on misinformation (see every post I posted about how to use disc cooldowns). I can't be any clearer with how I'm fully presenting everything I know, and it's helpful for many struggling priests. There's no need to mock me for my work I'm contributing.
10/05/2012 04:39 AMPosted by Twistedmind
My postings here aren't to illustrate that I think priests are fine.


Thread title: "I still think priests are fine (pve)"

10/05/2012 04:39 AMPosted by Twistedmind
There's no need to mock me for my work I'm contributing.


I'll let you do that :)
Twisted... Love you vids. Love your personality. You are having a blast playing a priest. I am too. I love this class. Been my main since Vanilla...

You are getting kills. And you are an amazing player. I dont understand how you can continue to HURT the community by down playing the situation. You are getting the job done but imagine what you could do if your healing output was bumped up to that of a Resto Shammy (not going to say healing monk ... cause well they are broken in the other direction).

You are fighting tooth and nail to put out a fire with buckets that are half full and every other healer gets full buckets. Yes your getting the fire out (while killing yourself half the time to do it).

Priests get the least attention each expac. We get the least updates. The least blue posts. I believe this to be in part due to the priest communities reaction to the situation. Being a priest is tough. I believe it to be the most challenging of all the healing spec. We have the biggest tool boxes and we have to juggle the most cooldown's and tools. This is why I love the class as do many others. But those of us that like this challenge have a tendency towards the hubris and say "everyone that cant do what I do is just bad ... we're fine". This holds our voice down as a community and our concerns go un-answered.

The post above that Erda made me laugh too. But it should open your eyes. You are an AMAZING priest. Your ranks show it. They also show how crippled you are in doing so. Help us get the priest adjustments that are needed and please stop advocating against it.

** Edit .. oh and Keep up the good work and keep having fun! I look forward to the rest of your videos and good luck on Monday.

We did 2 pulls on Elegon without really knowing what we're doing, and I'm leaning towards disc. If the 200k damage he does to the raid when an add explodes is intended, you might see a video of me doing pw:s spam trying to get a fat rapture return when they all pop (yes, that mechanic was back last I checked). For hps, I'll be supporting the group, but I think this Elegon fight is to resto druid as Gara'Jal was to disc priest, so I could care less about how we compare hps wise as long as we're sustaining raid survivability.


I question your definition of a 'fat rupture return'. You know that's very risky right? You still end up losing mana - only less. And if somebody gets their bubble popped first because of a random spike (which happens for that fight), you're down a critical amount with a very slim chance of recovery.

I'm looking at your gear and it's 8541 spirit. Let's round it to 8550 for math ease. Flask bumps it up to 9550.

A shield costs 18300. Rapture returns 150% spirit. You gain 14235 per shield popped at the same time. You still lose 4000mana per shield, which is an absurdly low price for what it does. Let's say the planets align and you use Vial for that one proc. You barely pull even with a little bit on top. And that's only ONE add. Given the spike damage during that phase with the massive AE, there is a high chance you will end up with somebody having a bubble popped early and you already having sank 100k+ worth of mana for limited absorbs that can easily be mitigated by a DK's bubble or some other CD (or your barrier if you are disc). Or you using spirit shell and using a few POHs on your raid.

I raid 25, and after our first night of pulls as disc I feel quite useless when looking at 25 sub 50% HP bars - naturally I bottomed out. On the second night I went holy and I fared better - I did not bottom out (I was 3rd from the bottom \o/ ) BUT AS I FOUND OUT LATER I WAS WITH DISC GLYPHS AFDSAF so my performance could've been better. Life was easier as holy, especially in P2 where the entire raid is spread out practically over the entire map (ALL HAIL CASCADE). I am interested to see how you will be handling that situation in 10s - though I may be missing something and the starry dragon will probably not spawn as many lil guys to DPS down compared to a 25 where it's coming from 6 different corners and half the raid is out of range.

Oh, and I got sat regardless when we had to cut a healer :3 NEVER FEAR though...I ran Jade Temple and finally got my spirit gloves.
I'm interested to try the mastery stacking you employ having thought about it. We tried Stone Guard for the first time today with the same color combination you had (but with 3 healers) and couldn't manage.

Also, I love how people take a priest who is taking what they got and making it work (however small) as some kind of threat against the sea of criticism of the rest of the forums. The title of the thread has 'I still think' in it. It's an opinionof how a class is faring. It's not going to topple the entire Blizzard patch team into thinking everything is balanced, so get off the soap boxes and let people play how they want.

Will keep an eye out for more videos from you Twist. Thanks for sharing!
World of logs is a tool, not a contest.


If we're lobbying disc cd synergy, I'm right there with you. If we're lobbying a shorter chakra stance cd, count me in. If we're lobbying to cheese the world of logs meters in terms of hps...no.


They also tell me that the stigma started in beta when classes were horribly bugged has swayed the popular opinion of an entire playerbase.


This pretty much sums it up. Whether priests want to hear it or not.

(Also the stigma started by top guild comments that have no real meaning to the overwhelming majority of players)
except logs and almost everyone else in the community state that priests aren't fine and i'm seeing them being benched everywhere for better healers, yep, Priests are fine.

No, no they aren't.
Have yet to see a link to WoL in Priest threads that wasn't the front page of the HPS rankings.
I value twisted's opinions and he's obviously aiming for end game content. But the World of Logs parses he links doesn't impress me one bit. Using the fact that his resto druid barely outhealed him in terms of raw HPS in logs and then claiming that utility > logs in the same argument confuses me. He's the 43rd ranked disc on the Stone Guard fight. That's 43rd out of EVERY disc 10m log that's come in in the first week so far. Yet he 2 healed the fight with a resto druid who did almost 10k MORE hps than he did. Know where that resto druid ranked? No where close to top 200.

I also ranked on that fight, and we 3 healed it. Took us a minute longer to down the boss, but our healing numbers were very comparable. Yet I was far below the druid and paladin healer (they were in the 18 millions, I was around 15).

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9iv8hfyrou82wo62/sum/healingDone/?s=7632&e=8074

How he can claim that our toolkit isn't grossly inadequate compared to what the other healing classes can bring to the table is beyond me.
@OP if there is one thing I've learned about these forums, it's that people would rather blame other factors for their underwhelming performance than ask for help or accept help. I'm certain your strategies and assistance will manage to get through someone, however.

The problem shouldn't even have to be how the class compares to the overall throughput of everyone else. Is the class capable of clearing the current normal content without hindering the success of the team, should be the question asked. And no, the class does not under-perform.

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