LFR Sharing Lockout with Normal Modes?

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
From the below link:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/239858-lfr-difficulty-are-you-serious/#post137

Posted by Retarjoe
Could you maybe answer the question on why LFR doesn't share a lockout with the Normal raids?


Taepsilum replied:
This is actually something we might consider for the future.
There are quite a few logistical issues that we would need to sort out before we could apply such a change though. At the moment developers simply have to put their efforts into higher priority tasks and we don’t currently have a plan for this, but it might happen someday, it’s definitely not out of the realm of possibilities.

We would also like to see how LFR is used, perceived and viewed by the players during these next few weeks because the only basis for comparison that we have for LFR is DS, which is a completely different beast, not only the circumstances surrounding Cataclysm are extremely different from the ones in MoP, but LFR itself has also changed quite a bit.


From a raid leader's perspective, I would adore this change. We're still gearing up to head into Mogu'shan vaults, but we loved the progression path that we had before LFR was installed. Right now we're in this odd place where half the guild has really tried hard to gear their characters, and now have done LFR and given them a tremendous advantage over the characters who have been more casual about gearing (we are a casual raiding guild).

But the people who are best geared are also learning poor habits, not really learning anything about the fights, and investing a ton of time into the game that most of the guild cannot afford.

I would really love to keep the concepts of LFR and Normal Modes separated for everyone's sake. LFR was not conceived for us; we've been raiding since before Cataclysm. It has been stated multiple times by Blizzard that it wasn't an intended part of the progression path, yet it still contains much better gear than what (generally) comes out of the five-man content.

My goal is to avoid LFR as much as possible and remain competitive, and keep people focused on getting the 'real' (subjective definition, I know) raid bosses down. Sharing a lockout would be amazing at keeping the two definitions of raiding separate, and would ask that if this is actually being considered that they should consider this one player who would be eternally grateful for such a change.

In short, if you're in a raiding guild, do Normal Mode. If you're not, do LFR. Take your pick. I would love this forever.
10/11/2012 08:56 AMPosted by Damnbledore
But the people who are best geared are also learning poor habits, not really learning anything about the fights, and investing a ton of time into the game that most of the guild cannot afford.

Tell me more about this, because I'd like to better understand the negatives of the separate lockouts.

You say your raiders are "investing a ton of time" into this, but I'm trying to imagine how. I did LFR this week, and it took me 40 minutes from start to finish. The only 'preparation' I did for it was 'trying to get my gear level to at least i460' which, frankly, I would need to do anyway to do normals. So when you say people are "investing a ton of time" into this, what exactly are they doing that they wouldn't be doing anyway?

You say they aren't learning anything about the fights, and while lord knows I can't argue with that - what damage exactly is that doing? How is that different from them not doing anything at all? Are you suggesting that your raiders are so dim that, once they've done the fight in a non-dangerous setting, they will lose the ability to move out of fire that actually burns? That seems odd to me.

In terms of gearing, I didn't happen to get loot, but I would have been quite happy to have gotten something, as we are starting "real raiding" in a week or so, and upgrades are already a plus. And 90 Valor is better than doing 18 more dailies.

Personally, I put LFR in the same bucket with "random heroics." They offer me no challenge and teach me nothing. But I do them for the valor, and because they are more entertaining than dailies. But I don't consider them any particular scourge on raiding.
10/11/2012 09:08 AMPosted by Waste
But I don't consider them any particular scourge on raiding.


Those are all fair points. But there's a bigger picture here than the first week it's available.

There are those in my guild who did LFR every week for months. And when they didn't do it on their mains anymore, they did it on one or two alts. This is all their choice, of course, and I know people don't like getting choices taken away. But imagine a scenario where your whole guild is doing the LFR version of a raid two times a week, then going into the normal mode version of the same place. Half the folks who did that in 4.3 burned out on the content, and when they were gone, it made it much harder for the rest of us who realized what LFR was doing to us and stopped.

We still had stuff to do. We completed the legendary on the Sunday before Pandaria came out. Our first rogue, who had completed half the legendary by like March... burned out on the content. Just one example, and anecdotal at best.

The fact of the matter is that as long as LFR provides better gear than what the rest of the content provides, there will be those who feel the pressure to do both at the same time. I feel it too, but I also know the dangers. It doesn't change the fact that by the time the guild makes it into Mogu'shan Vaults (I'm hoping this Sunday) half the people will have already, in one way, beaten the raid.

That sense of discovering something amazing and new with your friends and family is gone. That moment we first stepped into Bastion of Twilight. Defeating Ascendant Council after two weeks of research to finally see Cho'gall for the very first time. Now, by the time we get to that point, everyone who does LFR will have already 'beaten' Cho'gall eight times. Ten times. But instead of beating him, we'll be wiping. Over and over. Trying to really figure out the fight. Trying to really succeed.

My issues with LFR are personal, and long-term problems. If they shared a lockout, than by progressing, we're also keeping that sense of discovery within the guild, instead of diluting it with a bunch of strangers.
Another way to look at it:

Number of times I Killed Ragnaros by the end of Firelands: 7
Number of times I Killed Deathwing by the end of Dragon Soul: 47
(25 LFR across 3 characters, 22 Normal)

Seven kills of the big D for every 1 kill of Ragnaros. Guess which boss seemed more epic? :]
I would really love to keep the concepts of LFR and Normal Modes separated for everyone's sake. LFR was not conceived for us; we've been raiding since before Cataclysm. It has been stated multiple times by Blizzard that it wasn't an intended part of the progression path, yet it still contains much better gear than what (generally) comes out of the five-man content.

My goal is to avoid LFR as much as possible and remain competitive, and keep people focused on getting the 'real' (subjective definition, I know) raid bosses down. Sharing a lockout would be amazing at keeping the two definitions of raiding separate, and would ask that if this is actually being considered that they should consider this one player who would be eternally grateful for such a change.

In short, if you're in a raiding guild, do Normal Mode. If you're not, do LFR. Take your pick. I would love this forever.


The last paragraph is the key one and the reason why separate lockouts don't really need to exist. It's inconsistent in the extreme to imply as many do that LFR on the one hand is too attractive to pass up so obviously it requires a separate lockout to somehow force people to pass it up.

I agree entirely with the last paragraph. Exert some self-control and don't press the button to queue up. Problem solved.
10/11/2012 09:22 AMPosted by Damnbledore
But I don't consider them any particular scourge on raiding.


Those are all fair points. But there's a bigger picture here than the first week it's available.

There are those in my guild who did LFR every week for months. And when they didn't do it on their mains anymore, they did it on one or two alts. This is all their choice, of course, and I know people don't like getting choices taken away. But imagine a scenario where your whole guild is doing the LFR version of a raid two times a week, then going into the normal mode version of the same place. Half the folks who did that in 4.3 burned out on the content, and when they were gone, it made it much harder for the rest of us who realized what LFR was doing to us and stopped.

We still had stuff to do. We completed the legendary on the Sunday before Pandaria came out. Our first rogue, who had completed half the legendary by like March... burned out on the content. Just one example, and anecdotal at best.

The fact of the matter is that as long as LFR provides better gear than what the rest of the content provides, there will be those who feel the pressure to do both at the same time. I feel it too, but I also know the dangers. It doesn't change the fact that by the time the guild makes it into Mogu'shan Vaults (I'm hoping this Sunday) half the people will have already, in one way, beaten the raid.

That sense of discovering something amazing and new with your friends and family is gone. That moment we first stepped into Bastion of Twilight. Defeating Ascendant Council after two weeks of research to finally see Cho'gall for the very first time. Now, by the time we get to that point, everyone who does LFR will have already 'beaten' Cho'gall eight times. Ten times. But instead of beating him, we'll be wiping. Over and over. Trying to really figure out the fight. Trying to really succeed.

My issues with LFR are personal, and long-term problems. If they shared a lockout, than by progressing, we're also keeping that sense of discovery within the guild, instead of diluting it with a bunch of strangers.


People Burned out in 4.3 because of the 11 months of a single tier of raiding. same thing happened in ICC when we had that out for a year. shocking. 11-12 months of the same !@#$ gets boring? yeah.
I can say personally that if they share a loot lockout, I'll only be doing LFR for whatever bosses my guild isn't killing in reg.

Let me first state that I'm thinking about the progression of DS LFR, which basically went - First weeks, killing everything easily. First months, still going okay. Closer to MoP, more and more wipes, alts, rude folks, etc. Right before MoP--most LFR groups I joined couldn't down madness and struggled even with rudimentary mechanics like the tank swap on Ultra.
(Nevermind that at the end of cata I was still arguing with people about positioning CLOSER to ultra for weapon procs/dps, but w/e)

Potential downsides:

1) Geared, competent raiders have no incentive to join LFR over reg/heroic, meaning they're removed from the talent pool of raiders in LFR.

2) If they do join, it will likely be for one or two bosses, which in turn would add to the complaints of "I can never get a fresh LFR queue."

3) People will be less likely to bring their alts into LFR until close to lockout reset because they'd rather get loot from the reg/heroic (if needed by their guild/group). This could also be a pro, I suppose.

4) People feeling "locked in" to LFR--ie, they play LFR but then don't feel motivated to try out regmode/heroic with other guilds and learn/grow to their full potential as players. Hate to say it, but let's be honest--for many, gear is the primary motivating factor of raids, and it is certainly the primary motivating factor for RETURNING to raids.

Potential improvements:

1) We get that "sense of discovery" back again, except we don't, really, because you always have the option of not doing LFR. The gear from it isn't required to clear regmodes.

2) I'm honestly hard-pressed to think of another improvement that shared loot lockouts would bring. Perhaps encouraging people to regmode raid? But again, if you can regmode/heroic mode raid, then chances are you're doing so already. People are either stuck with LFR for lack of friends/guild skill/etc, or they're running regs/roics and doing LFR for additional loot/gold and, dare I say, fun. I do enjoy the lowered difficulty of LFR. I can enjoy heroics/regs AND LFR. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I read this bluepost and immediately discussed it with guildies. The results were synonymous amongst us (anecdotal, small sample size, etc)--we don't like it.



The last paragraph is the key one and the reason why separate lockouts don't really need to exist. It's inconsistent in the extreme to imply as many do that LFR on the one hand is too attractive to pass up so obviously it requires a separate lockout to somehow force people to pass it up.

I agree entirely with the last paragraph. Exert some self-control and don't press the button to queue up. Problem solved.


Nailed it. If Blizzard doesn't need to hold your hand through raids, they shouldn't have to put Parental Safety Controls on the queue button. Don't let your preference control those of others!

Another way to look at it:

Number of times I Killed Ragnaros by the end of Firelands: 7
Number of times I Killed Deathwing by the end of Dragon Soul: 47
(25 LFR across 3 characters, 22 Normal)

Seven kills of the big D for every 1 kill of Ragnaros. Guess which boss seemed more epic? :]


Ragnaros had more demanding mechanics and a little bit of RNG in the mix. Everything about Madness was 100% predictable. More RNG into fights tends to make them exponentially more frustrating, but more epic an achievement to overcome.

But, again, nobody forced you to queue for LFR. You didn't need the loot from it to clear DS. This is a very similar argument to the huge debate going on about the dailies. Do you have to do the dailies? No. Does it make gearing faster? Yes. But we still have them. Do you have to do LFR? No. Does it make gearing faster? Maybe (my luck, even with coins, has been pretty shoddy).
Another way to look at it:

Number of times I Killed Ragnaros by the end of Firelands: 7
Number of times I Killed Deathwing by the end of Dragon Soul: 47
(25 LFR across 3 characters, 22 Normal)

Seven kills of the big D for every 1 kill of Ragnaros. Guess which boss seemed more epic? :]


Dragon Soul was out for a lot longer then Firelands was too. you seem to forget that.
also, from my perspective at least, getting through Firelands was a bit more of a challenge then DS (more trash, boss mechanics a little bit harder to learn, etc).

That sense of discovering something amazing and new with your friends and family is gone. That moment we first stepped into Bastion of Twilight. Defeating Ascendant Council after two weeks of research to finally see Cho'gall for the very first time. Now, by the time we get to that point, everyone who does LFR will have already 'beaten' Cho'gall eight times. Ten times. But instead of beating him, we'll be wiping. Over and over. Trying to really figure out the fight. Trying to really succeed.

My issues with LFR are personal, and long-term problems. If they shared a lockout, than by progressing, we're also keeping that sense of discovery within the guild, instead of diluting it with a bunch of strangers.


Personal issues should not dictate game-wide changes.

1) Sharing a loot lockout does not mean you won't have raiders/friends/family who go there first anyway, so that destroys that argument.

2) I could counter by saying that there's a certain sense of accomplishment in seeing 24 strangers (some good, some really, really bad) come together and triumph, even over a very simplistic version of the encounter. To me, that's fun.

3) Beyond that, I fail to see how killing Cho'gall in LFR would have robbed you of anything except that first, initial, "OMG THERE'S CHO'GALL" experience.

Which is kinda like your first high. You hit it, and then you spend the rest of the patch trying to get back that feeling but never really getting there. That's a one-shot experience.

So, frankly, I don't think LFR robs you of that much. You still have to wipe on reg/roic modes. You still have to learn the fights, which you'd have to do with or without LFR. If people get "bad habits" from LFR, they'll wipe in reg--and that should be enough education to show them, "Oh, hey, I can stand in this in LFR but if I don't want to wipe all night in reg I should probably move 20 pixels to the right."
10/11/2012 09:33 AMPosted by Moanshadow
Exert some self-control and don't press the button to queue up. Problem solved.


Definitely, but there are still problems from my perspective, and I beg forgiveness for seeming short-sighted.

Those who don't exert self-control are geared better (for the first few weeks or months, anyway) and do better damage for no other reason than that they have more time to kill. It is not because they are more skilled. It is not because they try harder. It's because they're willing to push a button and hit a target dummy for 1 hour every week.

Those of us, dinosaurs that we may be, that consider raiding a privilege of at least 10 people being available at the same time with 1 or 2 of them willing to put in much of their time and attention into making it a worthwhile experience for everyone, and who really want to try hard are seeing people who aren't as willing or able elevated above them.

It's rewards without work, or skill, just time. It works out over time, since normal modes are where the best gear is at, but by the time that cycle flips my best-geared raiders are sick of the raid already and we haven't even downed the final boss yet. That's extrapolating from one experience with Dragon Soul, but I see no reason why it will be any different in the future unless something like this happens.
Exert some self-control and don't press the button to queue up. Problem solved.


Definitely, but there are still problems from my perspective, and I beg forgiveness for seeming short-sighted.

Those who don't exert self-control are geared better (for the first few weeks or months, anyway) and do better damage for no other reason than that they have more time to kill. It is not because they are more skilled. It is not because they try harder. It's because they're willing to push a button and hit a target dummy for 1 hour every week.

Those of us, dinosaurs that we may be, that consider raiding a privilege of at least 10 people being available at the same time with 1 or 2 of them willing to put in much of their time and attention into making it a worthwhile experience for everyone, and who really want to try hard are seeing people who aren't as willing or able elevated above them.


So what you're saying is that you object to LFR because "baddies" get geared faster than you, and that robs you of your smug sense of satisfaction as you stand in your respective Vale faction hub? Not to be rude, but that's the subtext I read in your words.

Furthermore, if you're doing regmodes and they aren't, you're going to outgear them eventually (perhaps even faster) anyway. So that point is moot. You're asking for everybody to be brought down to a common denominator instead of sucking it up and hitting what you call a "training dummy," for "1 hour a week."

But the crux of your argument is rate of gear acquisition. Sorry, but you won't get much sympathy for me, there. I've disliked the elitists in this game since Vanilla and my attitude will never change.

It's rewards without work, or skill, just time. It works out over time, since normal modes are where the best gear is at, but by the time that cycle flips my best-geared raiders are sick of the raid already and we haven't even downed the final boss yet. That's extrapolating from one experience with Dragon Soul, but I see no reason why it will be any different in the future unless something like this happens.


Then by that logic, we should remove JP and VP rewards, because they're just rewards without work or skill (as roics are easy) and remove reputations altogether (because they're just time). See how slippery a slope that is?


The fact of the matter is that as long as LFR provides better gear than what the rest of the content provides, there will be those who feel the pressure to do both at the same time.

Not really much of an issue any more. LFR loot is actually pretty meager, and if you have even tiny success at normals, you'll outgrow it very fast. It is equal to crafted gear and even some quest rewards (at high rep levels). It is far inferior to valor or normal gear. As a practical matter, it is hard to imagine meaningful farming going on after four or five resets on your main - what will probably amount to a three hour time investment spread over a month. You'll spend more time on Klaxxi dailies, trust me.


Exactly. And Golden Lotus. And Shado-pan. And August Celestials. And whatever 5.1 brings for another daily grind.
10/11/2012 09:22 AMPosted by Damnbledore
There are those in my guild who did LFR every week for months. And when they didn't do it on their mains anymore, they did it on one or two alts.

This sounds like a "you and your guildies" problem, not a "Blizzard" problem.

I killed Deathwing on LFR a grand total of once. On my main at that time (this guy), just to see what the fuss was about. "Not doing un-fun things" is the solution, not "more nanny-state settings imposed by Blizzard."

I would also point out that your proposed "solution" wouldn't even touch the main problem you are outlining - people doing it multiple times a week using alts. Those alts wouldn't care about the separate lockouts, so you'll still have your buddies farming LFR endlessly. They need self-control, not technology.

10/11/2012 09:22 AMPosted by Damnbledore
The fact of the matter is that as long as LFR provides better gear than what the rest of the content provides, there will be those who feel the pressure to do both at the same time.

Not really much of an issue any more. LFR loot is actually pretty meager, and if you have even tiny success at normals, you'll outgrow it very fast. It is equal to crafted gear and even some quest rewards (at high rep levels). It is far inferior to valor or normal gear. As a practical matter, it is hard to imagine meaningful farming going on after four or five resets on your main - what will probably amount to a three hour time investment spread over a month. You'll spend more time on Klaxxi dailies, trust me.

10/11/2012 09:22 AMPosted by Damnbledore
My issues with LFR are personal, and long-term problems.

I agree. That's why you should look inside yourself for the solution, and not ask Blizzard to build a game system to save you from yourself.

Good luck to you though. Stay off the LFR crack!
But, again, nobody forced you to queue for LFR. You didn't need the loot from it to clear DS. This is a very similar argument to the huge debate going on about the dailies. Do you have to do the dailies? No. Does it make gearing faster? Yes. But we still have them. Do you have to do LFR? No. Does it make gearing faster? Maybe (my luck, even with coins, has been pretty shoddy).


The problem is: what problem was LFR conceived to solve?

"The raid finder is designed to serve players whose schedules do not permit regular raiding."

The problem is the valor points, the higher level loot, etc. all essentially mandate that even those with access to regular raiding are strongly encouraged (yes, not required, like how riding a ground-only mount when flying mounts is available) for a few weeks at least, every tier, to attend LFR.

The most important time to do LFR is when the raid is new, and so your first experience with the entire raid is with a bunch of people you don't know. That aspect of old raiding is officially dead.

I'm not saying LFR isn't awesome. It is for the purpose that it serves: getting the entire player-base to see the raids even if they don't have time to raid for real. But I would prefer that it only be attractive to them, instead of almost* mandatory for everyone for the first few weeks.
10/11/2012 09:48 AMPosted by Damnbledore
Those of us, dinosaurs that we may be, that consider raiding a privilege of at least 10 people being available at the same time with 1 or 2 of them willing to put in much of their time and attention into making it a worthwhile experience for everyone, and who really want to try hard are seeing people who aren't as willing or able elevated above them.


In a way I understand this attitude but I would offer some friendly advice: The game has moved on and you should too for your own best interests. Imagine that raiding is left a privilege that only the few can enjoy or accomplish. The end result of that is that you absolutely will see less raids. Blizzard has as much as said this. The game is older, resources are not unlimited and supporting content that few will see is a dead end and a waste.

You are much better off to accept what is, ignore what other people are doing and wearing--it's none of your business in any case--and concentrate on your own personal social group/guild. I disagree entirely that anyone is elevated above anyone else and in any case, even minor successes in normal, much less heroic mode raiding will restore your personally perceived position in the social strata.

I'm not trying to be harsh with this but this attitude of 'raiding is a privilege' is detrimental to the future of raiding in WoW.
This sounds like a "you and your guildies" problem, not a "Blizzard" problem.

I killed Deathwing on LFR a grand total of once. On my main at that time (this guy), just to see what the fuss was about. "Not doing un-fun things" is the solution, not "more nanny-state settings imposed by Blizzard."


Fair enough. Some of us, though not all, certainly learned our lesson.

Good luck to you though. Stay off the LFR crack!


So much this. I do honestly accept (and promote) this as a solution whenever possible. Personally, I look forward to beating them in DPS anyway, despite their advantage. More than anything, their tears on mumble will fuel me.
So long as I'm only locked out of LFR loot I'm fine with that. In other words, I take this back to my ICC 25 raiding days:

Let me do the harder stuff with serious people
Let me do easier stuff (lfr) with friends and family, but with no loot

That'd be perfect.
10/11/2012 10:18 AMPosted by Ghatok
So long as I'm only locked out of LFR loot I'm fine with that.

I hadn't really thought about that option. That's kind of interesting and, I think, a far better solution than a straight-out lockout.
So what you're saying is that you object to LFR because "baddies" get geared faster than you, and that robs you of your smug sense of satisfaction as you stand in your respective Vale faction hub? Not to be rude, but that's the subtext I read in your words.


Not intended. This is not directed at the playerbase at large. I love LFR for making raids more accessible, ironically. More accessibility means more resources devoted to making them awesome. In theory.

The problem is, I saw what happened to 5-mans. Awesome, then easy thanks to gearing and new tiers, then awesome (in Cataclysm) for those with guilds and good friends to run them and MISERABLE for those who did not. The end result is that dungeons were made easy permanently, instantly grindable, and the point of having a guild for the purpose of 5-mans was gone. Dragon Soul, length of the tier aside, was a perfect example of this. More accessibility helped to make it a terrible raid, and one that we played for almost a year. More accessibility meant needing, for a time, to complete the content twice as often.

10/11/2012 10:06 AMPosted by Moanshadow
The game has moved on and you should too for your own best interests.

I didn't want raids to be on the same level as a mindless 5-man. It CAN be, for those who want it to be, now. I absolutely do not take any issue with that. But I still think a shared lockout is in fact called for here, for the exact same reason that they installed the shared lockout between 10 and 25 man. In other words, the precedent is there to support my position, even though it does lead to fewer options for players.

http://www.wowhead.com/news=169667/4-0-1-new-flexible-raid-lockout-system

Almost six months ago we announced that Cataclysm raids were being redesigned to make both raid sizes the same difficulty, drop the same quality of loot, and exist in the same lockout. This evolution in raid philosophy is built on the belief that the size of your raiding group should be a choice based solely on what's more fun and enjoyable for you, and that you should not have to complete the same raiding content twice in a week to maximize your character's progression.


But this was not meant to come off as an entitlement post. I'm happy with the work I put into it to make the experience enjoyable not only for myself but for my guildies. It's a treat to know a class well enough to squeeze some great numbers out of it, even when there are those who will do less with more.
So long as I'm only locked out of LFR loot I'm fine with that. In other words, I take this back to my ICC 25 raiding days:

Let me do the harder stuff with serious people
Let me do easier stuff (lfr) with friends and family, but with no loot

That'd be perfect.


Agreed, that is an interesting idea.

The problem is: what problem was LFR conceived to solve?
"The raid finder is designed to serve players whose schedules do not permit regular raiding."


It was admitted that much of the pivotal storyline consequences are derived from events in raids. The big badguys are there. The world-ending devices are there. The heroes of horde and alliance are there. So it wasn't just a scheduling thing--it was allowing people who don't have a guild, or don't have a big enough guild, to see the content as well.

With LFD already in place (giving people access to dungeons if they don't have the above), then LFR was just the next logical step.


The problem is the valor points, the higher level loot, etc. all essentially mandate that even those with access to regular raiding are strongly encouraged (yes, not required, like how riding a ground-only mount when flying mounts is available) for a few weeks at least, every tier, to attend LFR.


So if you want to be high and mighty, or keep that sense of wonderment and discovery, those are clearly more important to you than the raids. That's your prerogative--so don't complain if Blizzard took the game in another direction.


The most important time to do LFR is when the raid is new, and so your first experience with the entire raid is with a bunch of people you don't know. That aspect of old raiding is officially dead.


LFR came out a week after the raid, and even now it's only the first 3 bosses. You have time. If you're not good enough to clear it in that time (my guild, personally, is not--we still have folks who haven't started their dailies or truly grinded dungeons for gear yet) then again, that is your guild's issue, not everybody's.


I'm not saying LFR isn't awesome. It is for the purpose that it serves: getting the entire player-base to see the raids even if they don't have time to raid for real. But I would prefer that it only be attractive to them, instead of almost* mandatory for everyone for the first few weeks.


It is "real" raiding (there's that hubris bleeding through). It's just not the same difficulty as regular raids and heroic raids, and the social dynamic of it is different. Because of raiding LFR I have made many cross-server friends. Perhaps you should try being more social in them--striking up convos etc while people drag their heels to buff up and so on. LFR has the potential to be wonderful, but you have to bring to it a better attitude than calling it "not real raiding," or "an hour long training dummy."

So long as I'm only locked out of LFR loot I'm fine with that. In other words, I take this back to my ICC 25 raiding days:

Let me do the harder stuff with serious people
Let me do easier stuff (lfr) with friends and family, but with no loot

That'd be perfect.


I had assumed, seeing as you can enter LFR unlimited times, that this would be the baseline change. I don't really see the issue with LFR giving loot, though. Heck, have it give out 463 items, if we're going to say it's the same difficulty as LFD (which, frankly, I don't think is true. I think LFR is more challenging, by virtue of the fact that it's 25 people, not 5.)

That brings up another thing--since the late wrath nerf, I have missed being able to do a 10-man and a 25-man in the same week. I know it fatigued some, but raiding is my favorite part of this game and for many. Having LFR is filling that gap--I can run 10-mans with my guild and do LFR every week for the 25-man experience, which I do miss. But even Paragon has said that running 25-mans is a colossal PITA, and I agree. Getting everybody on at the same time, herding cats, etc. etc. etc. LFR is awesome because it grabs what you need and puts you all together. Go forth and play, my children.

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