Windsong and Elemental Force Information

General Discussion
Prev 1 3 4 5 9 Next
I just had another question about this. Take a resto druid who is just under the haste point for an extra tick of rejuv. Would they have a higher effective chance than one who is just over it and has an extra tick effectively decreasing the time since last chance to proc?
If both weapons with the enchant on it can reset the cooldown, does having Elemental on one and Windsong on the other then count as two separate enchants or one. If that one is separate, could it cause a larger chance for both to proc? Aka, is it then better to have two separate enchants?


Tenshirou, if I'm reading it correctly, having the same enchant on both weapons will double the Real Proc Per Minute (RealPPM) rate. So instead of having the basic 2RealPPM the calculation would be made with 4RealPPM, regardless of it being a Main Hand, Off Hand or Special (Yellow) attack.
10/15/2012 02:30 PMPosted by Zarhym
But now can you explain why Black Magic still procs from just targeting enemies?

This isn't really related to this topic, but we'll look into it.

Not related? Yes.
Are you finally aware of it? Yes.
Will something be done about it? Maybe.
Mission accomplished.
10/15/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Xiaolin
If both weapons with the enchant on it can reset the cooldown, does having Elemental on one and Windsong on the other then count as two separate enchants or one. If that one is separate, could it cause a larger chance for both to proc? Aka, is it then better to have two separate enchants?


Tenshirou, if I'm reading it correctly, having the same enchant on both weapons will double the Real Proc Per Minute (RealPPM) rate. So instead of having the basic 2RealPPM the calculation would be made with 4RealPPM, regardless of it being a Main Hand, Off Hand or Special (Yellow) attack.


No offense, but I hope you are wrong. It would effectively give dual wielders twice the chance for it to proc than those wielding only single weapons. While casters, druids and paladins would not have this problem, all melee classes that can dual wield would be given more incentive to dual wield over running a single wield spec.
10/15/2012 03:14 PMPosted by Garratha

This isn't really related to this topic, but we'll look into it.

Not related? Yes.
Are you finally aware of it? Yes.
Will something be done about it? Maybe.
Mission accomplished.


Win. +1
10/15/2012 03:18 PMPosted by Tenshirou
No offense, but I hope you are wrong. It would effectively give dual wielders twice the chance for it to proc than those wielding only single weapons. While casters, druids and paladins would not have this problem, all melee classes that can dual wield would be given more incentive to dual wield over running a single wield spec.


Which is how it has worked since... forever?
The question for comes up for dual wielders with it on both weapons. Does it count each weapon's enchant only for attacks made with that weapon or does having it on both weapons cause every attack to reset the counter?

Both weapons' attacks can proc both enchants. You can think of dual wielding Windsong enchanted weapons as having a second chance (at the same proc chance) at each damage event. And yes, both can proc from the same event; you could indeed have two Windsong procs from one attack.

10/15/2012 02:43 PMPosted by Pins
By haste, do you guys mean haste rating, total haste effects, or attack speed?

Ah, that’s a good thing to clarify. Thanks for bringing that up. In this case, it refers to the highest of your casting speed multiplier, or your attack speed multiplier. So, haste rating, increased attack speed effects (such as the attack speed raid buff), pure haste (such as Heroism or Bloodlust), or even Mind-Numbing Poison will all affect it.

Also, a minor clarification from the original post:

Windsong is now a useful enchant for all classes and specs

*Except Hunters, since they use scopes instead of weapon enchants.
No offense, but I hope you are wrong. It would effectively give dual wielders twice the chance for it to proc than those wielding only single weapons. While casters, druids and paladins would not have this problem, all melee classes that can dual wield would be given more incentive to dual wield over running a single wield spec.


As Pins said, it's always been the case that having the same enchant on two weapons gives you two bites at the cherry; but then those classes/specs are balanced around the assumption of two weapons/enchants.
10/15/2012 10:17 AMPosted by Daxxarri
Dual wielding and having both weapons enchanted with the same enchant will double the frequency of procs that you get.


What is the counter to this for two-handed weapons? If dual-wielding gives you double the proc rate, why would a class that can choose styles (arms vs fury, 2h vs dw frost) choose to wield a two-handed weapon?

If you haven't come up with a counter-balance yet, I think it would be fun if two-handed weapon users got the normal rate, but double the effect. Obviously this should not apply to Titan's Grip warriors.

Likewise, there are already bonuses for casters and tanks carrying off-hand frills and shields, so I think allowing staves to trigger the buffed procs would be fair, if the benefit were equal to the passive bonus we get from off-hand enchants. Casters are in a similar position where one-handed weapons are superior because of off-hand enchants.

Just some food for thought. I play a mage so this hardly affects me.

10/15/2012 03:33 PMPosted by Pins
No offense, but I hope you are wrong. It would effectively give dual wielders twice the chance for it to proc than those wielding only single weapons. While casters, druids and paladins would not have this problem, all melee classes that can dual wield would be given more incentive to dual wield over running a single wield spec.


Which is how it has worked since... forever?


Just because that is how it has worked in the past doesn't mean it's a perfect system.
Which is how it has worked since... forever?


Just because that is how it has worked in the past doesn't mean it's a perfect system.


The only thing it biases is that I have to pay twice as much to get my weapons enchanted compared to someone who wields a single 2h'er.
If I understand this correctly, if a player is dual wielding windsong enchanted weapons, (thus has a 4 ppm), and also currently has 50% haste bonus (meaning at least 6 ppm), and it has been at least 10 seconds since an action that could trigger a proc, does the opening move have a 100% chance to trigger a proc? Or would it be two separate 50% chances? (ie: 25% chance no proc, 50% chance of 1 proc, and 25% chance of 2 procs)

At least it should be 100% for a wielder of a single enchant currently having 200% haste, and greater then 10 seconds since the last potentially procing action correct?
2H weapons have more stats than a pair of 1H weapons.
Also, a minor clarification from the original post:

Windsong is now a useful enchant for all classes and specs

*Except Hunters, since they use scopes instead of weapon enchants.

Death Knights too? Isn't Runeforging supposed to be their thing, better than other weapon enchants?


Also, a minor clarification from the original post:

[quote]Windsong is now a useful enchant for all classes and specs

*Except Hunters, since they use scopes instead of weapon enchants.


Yeah we are still stuck with very boring scope procs. Seems pretty lame to leave our class out.
10/15/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Celestrylian
2H weapons have more stats than a pair of 1H weapons.


Loshan, Terror Incarnate + Tornado-Summoning Censer:
+2041 Stamina
+1526 Intellect (592+769+165 off-hand enchant)
+1760 combined secondary stats
+7907 spellpower

Jin'ya, Orb of the Waterspeaker:
+2071 Stamina
+1380 Intellect
+1813 combined secondary stats
+7907 spellpower

So a 1h/oh setup gets me:
-30 Stamina
+146 Intellect
-53 secondary stats

Any spell DPS will tell you that that is not a fair trade. 1h/oh are clearly the better option overall. I imagine this is intentional because it is more difficult to acquire two items than one, but it does limit our gear choice once we have all 3. Giving the staff a slightly stronger proc is one way to compensate, though it won't scale well using the current enchanting design.
So I read the whole thing but am not quite clear on one thing.

As a dual wielding melee, I would frequently see double and sometimes even a triple proc of Windsong rolling at once, if only for a few brief seconds. And even outside of getting double procs, it was up quite often.

Does this new proc design for Windsong mean I'm going to see a decrease in procs, and thus a decrease in stacked up procs?

Thanks for anyone who can clarify this for me.


You can have all three buffs up at the same time.

I've gotten it as a Mistweaver using a 2h. Even after the change.

Haven't noticed a frequency change in it either.


[quote]Windsong is now a useful enchant for all classes and specs

*Except Hunters, since they use scopes instead of weapon enchants.


And DKs, since our Runeforges are superior to these enchants
i like the buff im constantly having 3 of the buffs up at once
10/15/2012 03:44 PMPosted by Zarhym
Ah, that’s a good thing to clarify. Thanks for bringing that up. In this case, it refers to the highest of your casting speed multiplier, or your attack speed multiplier. So, haste rating, increased attack speed effects (such as the attack speed raid buff), pure haste (such as Heroism or Bloodlust), or even Mind-Numbing Poison will all affect it.


I suppose this brings up another question of mine. Does it dynamically update with haste procs?

Since Windsong can proc haste, does the system try to average out the value of a haste proc when figuring out the new PPM so it's consistent through an entire fight? Does it ignore all short term haste effects like Windsong when calculating PPM? Does it calculate it with the haste rating at that given point in time (pre or post application of the haste effect)?

Seems like there's potentially a lot of ways to handle this.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum