STR vs PvP Power: simplified

Warrior
Perhaps you can debug this conclusion then Weiner:

My stats:
Simulated DPS: 65972
PVP Power: 35%
Simulated Strength Scaling Factor: 1.94

PvP Power scaling:
265 = 1% @ 0%, however, at 35%, it's a 0.007407407407407
ie. .74% dps increase per 265.

Strength scaling:
per 1 = ( 1.94 / 65972 ) * 100% = 0.0029406637715
per 265 = 0.78 % dps increase

Because the simulator undervalues your strength by not considering pvp power, I believe should multiply that 1.94 I used by 1.35 raising it to 1.05% increase, yet it is already more heavily valued! Can you see any bugs here?

Note:
Execute was removed from the priority list prior to simulation.
I noted you using the DPS off your character sheet. Doing so skews your numbers because it (grossly) exaggerated hastes impact on your DPS.

Insights?
Mortal Strike: A vicious strike that deals 185% weapon damage plus 1461 and causes Mortal Wounds on the target.

Slam: Slams the opponent, causing 215% weapon damage plus 997.

Execute: Attempt to finish off a wounded foe, causing 8722 physical damage. Only usable on enemies that have less than 20% health.

Heroic Strike: An attack that instantly deals 110% weapon damage plus 499

Shockwave: Sends a wave of force in a frontal cone before you, causing (75 / 100 * AP) damage and stunning all enemy targets within 10 yards for 4 sec.

Equation used does not account for non-weapon damage based portion of warrior damage. If we are going to say it should be used for ludicrous ilevel disparity, rather than just say pvp power is better in the "simplified" thread, it might need to be looked at.

This is why Mercers sim does not line up with the conclusions from this thread.
This thread is LOADED with terrible math....please let it die.
Mortal Strike: A vicious strike that deals 185% weapon damage plus 1461 and causes Mortal Wounds on the target.

Slam: Slams the opponent, causing 215% weapon damage plus 997.

Execute: Attempt to finish off a wounded foe, causing 8722 physical damage. Only usable on enemies that have less than 20% health.

Heroic Strike: An attack that instantly deals 110% weapon damage plus 499

Shockwave: Sends a wave of force in a frontal cone before you, causing (75 / 100 * AP) damage and stunning all enemy targets within 10 yards for 4 sec.

Equation used does not account for non-weapon damage based portion of warrior damage. If we are going to say it should be used for ludicrous ilevel disparity, rather than just say pvp power is better in the "simplified" thread, it might need to be looked at.

This is why Mercers sim does not line up with the conclusions from this thread.


This, compounded with the aforementioned haste scaling bloat smudges the numbers a little too much to get a sound conclusion. Additionally, paper doll doesn't account for mastry or crit at all.

In conclusion I believe currently:
320 STR > 320 Power (yay JC...)
320 Power > 160 STR

TL;DR, gem like me.
Mortal Strike: A vicious strike that deals 185% weapon damage plus 1461 and causes Mortal Wounds on the target.

Slam: Slams the opponent, causing 215% weapon damage plus 997.

Execute: Attempt to finish off a wounded foe, causing 8722 physical damage. Only usable on enemies that have less than 20% health.

Heroic Strike: An attack that instantly deals 110% weapon damage plus 499

Shockwave: Sends a wave of force in a frontal cone before you, causing (75 / 100 * AP) damage and stunning all enemy targets within 10 yards for 4 sec.

Equation used does not account for non-weapon damage based portion of warrior damage. If we are going to say it should be used for ludicrous ilevel disparity, rather than just say pvp power is better in the "simplified" thread, it might need to be looked at.

This is why Mercers sim does not line up with the conclusions from this thread.


Yeah I just realized this while looking at his data. Scaling on crits would be enhanced more by PvP Power than strength but at what rate I am not sure. At larger base weapon DPS the PvP power would probably over take the current strength threshold.
Perhaps you can debug this conclusion then Weiner:

My stats:
Simulated DPS: 65972
PVP Power: 35%
Simulated Strength Scaling Factor: 1.94

PvP Power scaling:
265 = 1% @ 0%, however, at 35%, it's a 0.007407407407407
ie. .74% dps increase per 265.

Strength scaling:
per 1 = ( 1.94 / 65972 ) * 100% = 0.0029406637715
per 265 = 0.78 % dps increase

Because the simulator undervalues your strength by not considering pvp power, I believe should multiply that 1.94 I used by 1.35 raising it to 1.05% increase, yet it is already more heavily valued! Can you see any bugs here?

Note:
Execute was removed from the priority list prior to simulation.
I noted you using the DPS off your character sheet. Doing so skews your numbers because it (grossly) exaggerated hastes impact on your DPS.

Insights?


How is the PvP power scaling reduced at a higher percent? It should act as a flat coefficient, but the effectiveness of PvP Power VS strength at 35% is the percentage you showed, or at least pure white damage percentage. I think what should be happening is if you have your strength per DPS which you do. You can then evaluate 1% of total DPS then divide by 265 to find dps per point of PvP Power. Using your simstats:

My stats:
Simulated DPS: 65972
PVP Power: 35%
Simulated Strength Scaling Factor: 1.94

1 strength = 1.94 DPS
1 pvp power = 659.72/265 = 2.49 //if PvP power was not calculated in the DPS

The reasoning is damge is (using mortal strike):
((DPS*weapon_speed)*1.85 + 1461)*(1+pvp_power%)

Increasing the pvp power percentage is a flat mulitplier.
Perhaps you can debug this conclusion then Weiner:

My stats:
Simulated DPS: 65972
PVP Power: 35%
Simulated Strength Scaling Factor: 1.94

PvP Power scaling:
265 = 1% @ 0%, however, at 35%, it's a 0.007407407407407
ie. .74% dps increase per 265.

Strength scaling:
per 1 = ( 1.94 / 65972 ) * 100% = 0.0029406637715
per 265 = 0.78 % dps increase

Because the simulator undervalues your strength by not considering pvp power, I believe should multiply that 1.94 I used by 1.35 raising it to 1.05% increase, yet it is already more heavily valued! Can you see any bugs here?

Note:
Execute was removed from the priority list prior to simulation.
I noted you using the DPS off your character sheet. Doing so skews your numbers because it (grossly) exaggerated hastes impact on your DPS.

Insights?


How is the PvP power scaling reduced at a higher percent? It should act as a flat coefficient, but the effectiveness of PvP Power VS strength at 35% is the percentage you showed, or at least pure white damage percentage. I think what should be happening is if you have your strength per DPS which you do. You can then evaluate 1% of total DPS then divide by 265 to find dps per point of PvP Power. Using your simstats:

My stats:
Simulated DPS: 65972
PVP Power: 35%
Simulated Strength Scaling Factor: 1.94

1 strength = 1.94 DPS
1 pvp power = 659.72/265 = 2.49 //if PvP power was not calculated in the DPS

The reasoning is damge is (using mortal strike):
((DPS*weapon_speed)*1.85 + 1461)*(1+pvp_power%)

Increasing the pvp power percentage is a flat mulitplier.


I'm calculating the incremental value of each at practical (read: my) gear levels.

Edit:
1 strength = 1.94 DPS
1 pvp power = 659.72/265 = 2.49

This is a similar conclusion.
tbh, PvP Power isn't like Arp as much as you would think. which is why the GMs and Devs refereed to it as a Spell Pen replacement.
yes, arp does nearly the same thing but arp is a % vs. a flat number of armor.

PvP power does not simply work as a dmg multiplier as you are all thinking
it is a resilience remover and nothing more, nothing less

there is a point where stacking str will be more then pvp power but this is S1 of pvp power
it is still only in the preference stages, because no matter how hard anyone tries, they wont break 50%

pvp power is actually like arp in the since that the more you have the better, if u have the primary stat to back it up.

but you guys cant forget you have Colossus Smash, which if your a good warrior it should be up alot on your target.

this seriously messes with the pvp power equation.

The choice for season 12 is simple. which do you want
1000 extra melee top end dmg ... or 5% pvp power.
its up to you completely. i see warriors on both sides breaking 2.2k rating.
so it wont make or break you right now
tbh, PvP Power isn't like Arp as much as you would think. which is why the GMs and Devs refereed to it as a Spell Pen replacement.
yes, arp does nearly the same thing but arp is a % vs. a flat number of armor.

PvP power does not simply work as a dmg multiplier as you are all thinking
it is a resilience remover and nothing more, nothing less

there is a point where stacking str will be more then pvp power but this is S1 of pvp power
it is still only in the preference stages, because no matter how hard anyone tries, they wont break 50%

pvp power is actually like arp in the since that the more you have the better, if u have the primary stat to back it up.

but you guys cant forget you have Colossus Smash, which if your a good warrior it should be up alot on your target.

this seriously messes with the pvp power equation.

The choice for season 12 is simple. which do you want
1000 extra melee top end dmg ... or 5% pvp power.
its up to you completely. i see warriors on both sides breaking 2.2k rating.
so it wont make or break you right now


If it were a resilience remover it would be even more power full.

Section 2B - PVP Power's Interaction with PVP Resilience

The most common misconception that most players seem to have about PVP Power is that it acts as a kind of "Resilience Penetration" which counteracts the target's resilience 1 for 1, that is simply not true. PVP Power increases your damage by the percentage shown in your stat pane, it always increases it by that same amount regardless of how much resilience the target has. The target's resilience then mitigates that incoming damage based on how much damage reduction that target has.

Take for example a warrior who's swing always does 100 damage per swing in PVE. This warrior gets a +50% damage increase from PVP Power in PVP, so that 100 damage get's increased to 150 damage in PVP. This warrior has now decided to attack a paladin that looked at him the wrong way. The paladin has +50% damage reduction from his resilience, so when the warrior's 150 damage hits him it is reduced to down to 75. That is how PVP Power and Resilience interact, the outgoing damage is boosted up by PVP Power, then the total incoming damage is mitigated down by PVP Resilience.
10/15/2012 02:39 PMPosted by Weinercopter
265 pvp_power = [DPS/((1+pvp_power)*100)]*7


Ah I see - it's so simplified you needed multiple paragraphs and sh|t that looks like this " 265 pvp_power = [DPS/((1+pvp_power)*100)]*7" to explain it. So ... simple! o.0
10/24/2012 07:28 AMPosted by Kungfupowa
265 pvp_power = [DPS/((1+pvp_power)*100)]*7


Ah I see - it's so simplified you needed multiple paragraphs and sh|t that looks like this " 265 pvp_power = [DPS/((1+pvp_power)*100)]*7" to explain it. So ... simple! o.0


Yeah the best part is, thanks to mercer and others for pointing this out, its only white damage. What you really need is a strength equivalence to DPS, which simcraft has, and then you take your DPS/26500 and that is your DPS per point of PvP Power and compare it to STR. I recommend only setting buffs to what you would be using currently in arena. I suspect that once you have honor gear + heroic/conquest weapon PvP power will be better, though not by as much as I was expecting. The JC strength gems will be better than str/power purple gems, as mercer pointed out.
Shoulderless warriors unite!
SO, What I am wondering is given this weapon damage vs str. then the horsemans sinister slicer should be viable.
I have a Retribution Paladin I am interested in this type of linear analysis for. Since you seem to know the coefficients and mechanics better than I, I had some basic questions you will probably have no problems answering.

Are your results generalizable to all melee classes, or is this just for warriors?

Have the recent changes such as 5.1 made much of a difference for the scalar multiples that would change the net advantage of str over pvp power?

I ask because I am in the process of gemming a new PVP set, and I want to know if I should do PVP and PVP resil or just strength and PVP resil or Str and Crit.
They are adding epic +160 str +320 pvp power gems in the next patch. Gem debate solved.
So after all that talk blizz put out about how PvE weapons weren't going to define pvp

They're still THAT much better????

FUUUUUUUU#$*#%


It has been shown in the past that Blizzard frequently lies to the customers (you and I).
just go full resil like me nubs
ok so this makes.... some sense. My question is, do you gem more pvp power or more strength? Look at me gear and tell me what i should be gemming because im at a loss.
Thanks guys! (:
...my brain hurts :'(
it depends. some classes have moves and cds that increase your strength, agil, int by a % so having more main stat will increase your damage more beacuase those cds procs and talents. A vety easy example is say a dk unholy, tehy get 25% increase str all time so the more str so their str gives you 25% more attack powe rthen waht you said, and the crusader proc is 15% increase str. so it depends on what class you are, i can think of 5 classes off top my hand that get main stat% increase cd, procs, talents, and or passives which make oyur main stat give a much bigger bonus then pvp power. a unhoyl dk with all str gems will get a 22% atack power increase and 12% damage increase from all pvp power, not including the crusade proc 15% increase to str.

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