Blizzard's stance on ninja looting

General Discussion
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Why not institute the same system that you use for LFR?

Add a repeatable turn in for lesser charms to buy another type of charm that can be redeemed, just like LFR. Give people something to do with the lesser charms that are really starting to build up in banks.

Using the LFR system means that I'm not looking jealously at the plate DPS in the group when I get into Stormstout brewery trying to get one of the two weapons to drop (the only two weapons really reasonable for shield tanks to use that are available from heroics, but are also viable for DPS because they have no straight tanking stats on them).
Any idea on how quickly items will be updated so that hunters aren't getting need options on melee weapons and strength items, strength users aren't getting need options on mail or cloth or agility, and cloth casters aren't getting need options on non-cloth armor or physical (agi / str) items?

Oh and btw, it isn't just new stuff that seems flagged poorly. I ran Throne of Tides today and druids were able to need strength items, as were hunters, which were also able to need strength melee weapons.
10/17/2012 05:38 PMPosted by Zaxan
there are players who feel their rolling on off spec is a bad thing.
and there are players who feel that rolling NEED on gear they are going to use that is an upgrade for their class is not a bad thing

if you are going to play with random players, you have to accept it when random players simply do not feel the same way as you about loot

you have the option to form your own groups with players who feel exactly the same as you do about loot and you have the option to join groups with random players who might not feel exactly the same as you do about loot

use the option that you feel you will enjoy the most


You seem to me mistaking what I am saying for a straw man argument in your head. I am not debating the merits of this issue or asking which is right or wrong.

Stop talking to me like I'm arguing for a change.
i do accept that they feel different, i dont accept that i should not be in LFD if I want to use LFD loot system...


Who said that? I didn't. Let's not twist words around so we can stay angry.
Typically that's how I've approached it as well, but I've been trying to explain to people lately why there are players who feel their rolling on off spec is a bad thing.

Personally, I make it a standard point to ask people how they feel about this before every 5 man I run, as a lot of confusion seems to stem from people not doing that and assuming everyone else agrees with their personal ethical stance.

I will probably continue to uphold this in my own playstyle as well, it just feels like the better thing to do to me.


I think that's a great point. So much can be resolved before it happens by just communicating first. Make your intentions known. Find out other people's intentions. Dungeons are pretty quick and the pressure to just gogogo is strong, but it's a great idea to just take some time and talk for even a few seconds.
Thank you very much. So far in MOP, out of the 15-20 dungeon runs I've done, only 1 was bad, and I feel that's pretty good.

I even had a run where a hunter needed on a tank trinket in Mogu'shan, and after we all talked to him after he equipped it, he apologized and gave it back to the tank.

I feel those kinds of dungeon runs are a lot more enjoyable than "go go go".
Good to have this clarified more. The old community's honor system of not rolling on off spec is something we're supposed to move past then.

As I'm from the old days, I am uncomfortable with this policy. It still seems very selfish to a lot of people who leveled in that old environment, so this is going to take getting used to.


The old community's honor system is dead. The old community is dead.

I remember playing back in vanilla, a shaman rolled on, and won, Deathstriker (now known as Felstriker). A horde shaman. (Obviously. I did say vanilla.)

Because of Blizzard's policies at the time— including allowing forum posts about particular players— pretty soon the whole server knew about it. And while it is conceivably useful for an enhancement shaman, the community's verdict was pretty overwhelming that it really should have gone to a/the rogue, and that the shaman was in the wrong. According to warcraftrealms.com, that shaman was last seen playing in March of 2005.

This sort of thing would never happen today. With LFR, Blizzard's policies of not talking about anyone on the forums, and the general apathy brought about by these changes, it could never happen today. Whether that's a good thing is left up to the reader, but bear in mind that once upon a time, we could police ourselves; we didn't need to ask Blizzard to do it for us.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to tell me this, but okay.
It's not like I would argue otherwise.
10/17/2012 05:54 PMPosted by Bashiok
i do accept that they feel different, i dont accept that i should not be in LFD if I want to use LFD loot system...


Who said that? I didn't. Let's not twist words around so we can stay angry.
Telling players who joined an LFD group that I am going to use the LFD loot system and not their personal loot rules makes me feel like I have to then justify why I am going to use the LFD loot system while I am in an LFD group, when there should be no justification needed - I want to use the LFD loot system, therefore I joined an LFD group that uses the LFD loot system...
i think it all comes back to the saying 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. I remember my brother years ago would say 'Do unto others 'before' they do unto you'. I think that's the way many people look at it. With the attitude of many people it's just easier to go with the flow and think of oneself rather than think of someone else. I think the way Blizzard has cleaned up looting is really the best way to do things.

It would probably be best to just roll need if it's an upgrade, whether or not you are in that spec atm. It would also help to let the group/raid 'know' that ordinarily you run as say feral spec but atm you're healing and that you will be rolling on stuff for your feral spec, when given that option. Like blue said, communication. I think it is sorely lacking these days.
Can we please stop misusing the term "ninja looting"?..

Someone rolling need on OS gear is not ninja looting.

Ninja looting is something like the following:

You join a raid for Tempest Keep. The raid leader says it's open rolls of the mount drops. During the fight, the RL switches it to master looter. The mount drops, RL gives it to himself and promptly leaves group.

That is ninja looting and is actionable.

Rolling on gear upgrades, whether MS or not, is not "ninja looting" and never has been considered that.

Now, it might not be very considerate of the others in the group, but the drop was never "ninja'd".
10/17/2012 06:11 PMPosted by Bitzie
'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'.
I do - i dont tell players to not use the LFD loot system in LFD groups in hopes that they dont tell me to not use the LFD loot system in LFD groups.
10/17/2012 06:11 PMPosted by Bitzie
i think it all comes back to the saying 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'.


I do. I'm find with dps or tanks with healer offspecs rolling need on "my" gear, provided they actually make use of the gear. I'm less enthusiastic about people needing for vendor or whatever, but in practice that's difficult to police, so I don't let it bother me.
Thank *insert deity here*, now I get to watch people twist and re-interpret the Blues words to fit their agenda.

Remember folks, the blue said, talk to each other, but as long as everyone is playing within the loot settings, there is no need to get angry because you lost a loot role allowed by that setting.

Read the loot settings and understand them. With understanding come calmness (or at least the realization that, yes, it's within the rules, quit trying to make up rules that only make you feel better and only benefit you, to the detriment of others).

And for the love of *insert another deity here, maybe the same as the first deity, but he didn't (she?) listen to you anyways, so might as well try another one if you got one* please report all the items that were incorrectly tagged so Blizzard can fix this issue.
Good to have this clarified more. The old community's honor system of not rolling on off spec is something we're supposed to move past then.

As I'm from the old days, I am uncomfortable with this policy. It still seems very selfish to a lot of people who leveled in that old environment, so this is going to take getting used to.


The old community's honor system is dead. The old community is dead.

I remember playing back in vanilla, a shaman rolled on, and won, Deathstriker (now known as Felstriker). A horde shaman. (Obviously. I did say vanilla.)

Because of Blizzard's policies at the time— including allowing forum posts about particular players— pretty soon the whole server knew about it. And while it is conceivably useful for an enhancement shaman, the community's verdict was pretty overwhelming that it really should have gone to a/the rogue, and that the shaman was in the wrong. According to warcraftrealms.com, that shaman was last seen playing in March of 2005.

This sort of thing would never happen today. With LFR, Blizzard's policies of not talking about anyone on the forums, and the general apathy brought about by these changes, it could never happen today. Whether that's a good thing is left up to the reader, but bear in mind that once upon a time, we could police ourselves; we didn't need to ask Blizzard to do it for us.


On the whole, I agree with you. Though Blizzard can action people for ninja looting, it can only happen if the offender agreed to loot rules forbidding their actions in in-game chat, and it is a easy task for the person to arrange a name/server change or merely roll a new alt, so reputations one would build up on a server won't stick anymore. Never being able to get into groups or get into guilds, with the only way out being to dedicate months to re-roll a new character was such a better punishment. People behaved better, and the communities in general were better.

While the new policy of calling people out on the forum isn't necessarily a bad thing (server communities had their ways of passing this type of info around without needing to do that). But even if we could call people out on their crappy behavior, salvation is less than $30 away. Those days are dead, and nothing we can do is going to change that.
10/17/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Bashiok
Until then, if you want to ensure you get the drop you want, I really recommend forming a group with trusted friends and guild mates if at all possible. Plus you can talk trash on them the whole time, which makes everything with friends more fun! ;)


It'd be nice if there were more options. 'MS>OS' and variants are fairly standard.
Grouping with friends and guildies is all well and good, but it'd be nice not to have to decide

"my preferred loot system"+more hassle forming group> easy queue+ 'bad' loot system ?

I understand that you can't accomodate everyone, but i think it's fair to say ms>os is fairly standard, enough to be worth implementing.

Have you guys made any headway in deciding if you'd like to implement LFR-style loot in 5mans, and/or how is the new system working for you guys?

edit:
As someone pointed out, you'd have to have some way for the person to specificy what loot they want, so that a Tank who gets DPS drops is encouraged.

I'd love to hear more about what is going on and being tossed around, you guys are really really quiet on this topic.



Who said that? I didn't. Let's not twist words around so we can stay angry.
Telling players who joined an LFD group that I am going to use the LFD loot system and not their personal loot rules makes me feel like I have to then justify why I am going to use the LFD loot system while I am in an LFD group, when there should be no justification needed - I want to use the LFD loot system, therefore I joined an LFD group that uses the LFD loot system...


That's not their fault. If we can, we should try to let the different groups play how they want (obviously, design time, queue times and other considerations make this harder to judge).

IMHO, LFR was a very large step in the right direction. It's an anonymous loot system for an anonymous grouping system. Trying to fit a model that expects personal responsibility into an anon system is doomed to failure and frustration.
Interesting discussion but the reality is, there are just a lot of people who are selfish or who just don't care about other players. I never need offspec stuff until I see 100% that it isn't needed by anyone as mainspec. I'm an 'old school' player and my etiquette about loot stems from the days where grouping with same-realm people was the only option.

My problem with this lame 'we don't want to get involved' stance of Blizzard's is that its a 180 from the raid loot philosophy. Basically you're (meaning Blizzard) saying... dungeon loot doesn't matter, who cares, DE it, whatever... but raid loot, oh boy, now that's where its at! We have rules and policies and etc in place!

Dungeon loot DOES matter. It is a core stepping stone to raiding, to bettering your toon, to the sense of accomplishment of downing a boss. So watching hunters need tank trinkets (and win them), healers need dps gear, dps needing healer gear, tanks needing dps gear, and even seen people need stuff to VENDOR or shard it... any loot system that allows for that is a half-assed system, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Random groups are 100% different from friend/guild groups and accordingly, loot needs to be handled with that in mind.

Some people only have access to random dungeons because of jobs, lack of an active guild, odd playing hours, etc. Those players shouldn't be punished because they don't have 4 other people they can queue with. Dungeons need a role bonus or to simply auto-distribute loot a'la raid finder. The systems are already in game and working fine: there's no excuse to further ignore a problem that was only exacerbated by Dungeon finder.

I understand that you can't accomodate everyone, but i think it's fair to say ms>os is fairly standard, enough to be worth implementing.


How do you stop balance druids from rolling on resto gear? Do you really think it's fair that they can do that, but if they were feral instead of balance, would not be able to do that? Until you can solve that pretty fundamental problem, it's hard for me to see shared loot ms>os as being particularly fair.

If you're going to go to personal loot, you mght as well let the person choose what spec(s) they would like loot for.
Funny thing about the system. I've had maybe 5 items looted that technically weren't for said spec. It's starting to vex me greatly. To clarify I am not a selfish entitled person. Just now I went into Mogu'shan Palace heroic. A Neck dropped that was TECHNICALLY for healers. I knew I could reforge the spirit off but I asked if the Healer needed it.

She/he said yes but to go on roll on it, I said no and let her win. So my intentions are good but the fact is something is wrong with the fact people can be such thieves. Not sure why it got annoying in MoP but I suppose the ninjas are out of the woodwork.

/shrug
A random person on the street is able to punch you in the face.

A random person in a LFD group is able to need stuff that isn't for their chosen (See: The option he/she intentionally picked without any outside coercion) role.

If you want to say, "If they're able to do it then it's fine", then I hope every other random person you see in public punches you.

An inconsiderate selfish jerk hiding behind a link saying it's not bannable is still an inconsiderate selfish jerk.


Makes me sad that the MS>OS "etiquette" people are lumped in with this paragon of etiquette and moral superiority.

how odd, quote didn't work, try again:
A random person on the street is able to punch you in the face.

A random person in a LFD group is able to need stuff that isn't for their chosen (See: The option he/she intentionally picked without any outside coercion) role.

If you want to say, "If they're able to do it then it's fine", then I hope every other random person you see in public punches you.

An inconsiderate selfish jerk hiding behind a link saying it's not bannable is still an inconsiderate selfish jerk.

I understand that you can't accomodate everyone, but i think it's fair to say ms>os is fairly standard, enough to be worth implementing.


How do you stop balance druids from rolling on resto gear? Do you really think it's fair that they can do that, but if they were feral instead of balance, would not be able to do that? Until you can solve that pretty fundamental problem, it's hard for me to see shared loot ms>os as being particularly fair.

If you're going to go to personal loot, you mght as well let the person choose what spec(s) they would like loot for.


Yes, sorry, i forgot to mention that part. :)

You'd definitely want to include this, so more people would be willing to tank, but still recieve DPS loot they want.

You wouldn't have to, technically- you could make it 50/50, similar to current loot (tank gear doesn't always drops), but personally, letting you select is better in my opinion, although the coding/design would be a bigger investment.
10/17/2012 06:30 PMPosted by Valeus
something is wrong with the fact people can be such thieves. Not sure why it got annoying in MoP but I suppose the ninjas are out of the woodwork.

A) It isn't "stealing"

B) You JUST noticed this whining in MoP? Really?

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