Heroic Vizier, HoF

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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I love how every time Blizzard nerfs a heroic boss that's ridiculously overtuned to the point where none of the best guilds have killed it yet the most vocal complaints come from casuals who have never done hard content in their lives.


This is pretty pathetic blizzard. Just PLAIN PATHETIC. OMG a BOSS ISN'T KILLED WITHIN THE FIRST 10 MINUTES OMG NERF NERF.

Really, leave the bosses alone, let guilds bash their head against it for a period of time. Who cares if it takes weeks or months to get the boss down? Who cares if its the first or last boss.

This constant NERFING so everything can be killed within 5 minutes of its releasae is pathetic.

ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC.

Who cares if they are stuck for weeks or months?

Better yet Blizzard, just make one difficulty called FACE ROLL. Because that is apparently the only difficulty you seem to understand.

OMG OMG someone can't kill a boss in the first day wah wah, OMG OMG we better NERF NERF.

Sad VERY VERY SAD.


I acknowledge your passionate and well-constructed plea. I'll pass along feedback to the team.


Don't insult me.

You know as well as I know it wasn't well-constructed. It was written out of frusrtation for the constant nerfing of encounters if they can't be one-shotted.

There was a time when Blizzard had pride as a company and there was a time when people that played this game actually put some effort in.

Now, someone can't kill a boss in a day or two. To the FORUMS, QQ, Blizzard nerfs.

It was called heroic for a reason. No reason to even have them now since they'll just get nerfed to LFR difficulty anyway once someon hits a road block.

Remember when once upon a time ago, killing a boss meant something. When bosses where killed within months or weeks it was considered progress? Now, if a boss isn't killed within hours by undergeared players its considered overtuned.

Oh and MoP had started out so well, even posted a forum post praising the difficulty of raids finally being where they were.

Then this happened and the nerf to LFR happened. Guess I jumped the ship. Nothing at Blizzard has changed still going to nerf the moment anyone qq's.

So since everyone else crying for nerfs is getting theirs. Can you nerf all of normal mode and heroic mode to LFR difficulty? That way the road blocks us non pro players face are no longer there and all of us can kill normal and heroic bosses. I mean come on, its too hard for me so clearly it needs to be brought down to LFR level. Thanks!

Since some people won't get sarcasm, the last paragraph is to point out a flaw in Blizzard's rational.
11/08/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Suzushiirou
I love how every time Blizzard nerfs a heroic boss that's ridiculously overtuned to the point where none of the best guilds have killed it yet the most vocal complaints come from casuals who have never done hard content in their lives.


Actually, I was a hardcore raider up till Cata. I don't have time to commit anymore. Doesn't change the fact that fights back then also boiled down to the same thing. There were more ridiculously easy fights than hard fights for those playing at that level. Not every hardcore raider is someone who wants a challenge or love fights like that. A lot of them are good at pushing buttons and have the hours to commit. That alone doesn't make you a real hardcore player imo though. Some of the best players in the world like the challenge associated with the few fights that come out each expansion.

It's a shame that any time a fight is not beaten within a day, it's the hardcore players crying that the fight should be nerfed, not the casuals who actually can't commit to doing a fight like that if it stayed this way.
11/08/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Suzushiirou
I love how every time Blizzard nerfs a heroic boss that's ridiculously overtuned to the point where none of the best guilds have killed it yet the most vocal complaints come from casuals who have never done hard content in their lives.
11/08/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Suzushiirou
I love how every time Blizzard nerfs a heroic boss that's ridiculously overtuned to the point where none of the best guilds have killed it yet the most vocal complaints come from casuals who have never done hard content in their lives.


Its over tuned how? Because it isn't killed in the first day or two?

Have you ever thought, hey maybe the best guilds might need to farm some more, get some more gear to get that little extra they need to kill the boss. You know similar to what the rest of the world does.

Or how about just maybe even the best of the best guilds still can learn and improve. How is having a little challenge a bad thing.

They are quick to condem when others have issues, but when they encounter a roadblock, clearly it can't be them, it must be the boss, must be blizzard, it can not possibly for the be them. It can't possibly be they don't have the gear, or in some cases the skill. Nope, clearly 1 or 2 days is all that is required in this day of age to kill a boss.

Maybe if they spent some weeks farming and fine tuning they'd kill the boss. Maybe then we'd see a real boss race and truly determine who the best of the best is.

I acknowledge your passionate and well-constructed plea. I'll pass along feedback to the team.


Please don't feed the trolls. Also, thanks for making the fight killable, we appreciate it.


L2P. Nuff said. You clearly weren't good enough to kill the boss. Now you are crying like the LFR raiders when you can't get your epic lootz for freez!
11/08/2012 04:35 PMPosted by Lightstruck
What people are forgetting when they complain about things being nerfed is that these are the best of the best guilds working on it now and are already WAY out gearing 99% of the player base and are still not able to kill it, So if the best of the best can't kill it than there would be no way a guild that does heroics but not on the scale the top guilds would ever kill the encounter and as Blizzard has stated before they do not design content that only a very small Percentage of the player base will ever see. so with that I agree the nerfs were required.


Then those guys should do normal mode more? MSV HM? Remember that this is the first week of a heroic instance, and that these guys are lacking a lot of gear. Heroic should be heroic for a reason, right? Otherwise why not just call it "Not much harder than normal".

You are one of the people I was referring too, The guilds that are working on it now are decked out in the best gear they can get outside of Heroic HoF which is what they are unable to kill, so if the best of the best guilds can't kill it with the best gear you can get and on top of that most of the guilds have been getting tons of gear off the BMAH which the lower end guilds won't have it clearly needs a nerf.
What happened to not nerfing any fights during progression because it will downplay the attempts made by guilds? While the first round of quality of life fixes were indeed that - fixes, the second round are just plain nerfs to bring the fight down to an easier level considering the next two are apparently easy as well.

Why is it so bad to leave heroic bosses unkilled for a week? Do you want your content to be wiped out in a week so all these hardcore top end guilds can just whine about lack of it?


That is exactly what will happen. By the end of next month the hardcore will be crying there isn't enough to do. And blizzard will say they are just getting better at the game.

Fact is they aren't getting better, there was a lot to do, but blizzard decided to make it all dooable in a day instead of actually having to have guilds face a roadblock and over come it, through grinding and practice. Clearly that is not the state of the game anymore. "You're stuck for a day, we'll nerf it" - trademark pending - Blizzard.
When the best guilds in the world can't kill the first boss of the instance, the rest of the playerbase has literally zero chance.
What happened to not nerfing any fights during progression because it will downplay the attempts made by guilds? While the first round of quality of life fixes were indeed that - fixes, the second round are just plain nerfs to bring the fight down to an easier level considering the next two are apparently easy as well.

Why is it so bad to leave heroic bosses unkilled for a week? Do you want your content to be wiped out in a week so all these hardcore top end guilds can just whine about lack of it?


This was already explained before. We don't necessarily like doing these changes like this, but sometimes we see a need for it based on what we think an acceptable rate of progression for an encounter should be. We still have the Terrace of Endless Spring on the way and these Raids aren't the end of what we have planned for Raiding during the expansion. We'll work to get you all a better update on developer design philosophy on how they feel progression should play out at some point in the near future.

I wasn't joking when I said I acknowledged the feedback that I've seen. It's understandable that for some, the changes are welcome, for others they are a source of some frustration. There's only so much we can do to minimize this. Ultimately, the question will always come back to, "Is the encounter more fun than frustrating or more frustrating than fun?"


So .. acceptable rate of progression is someone is stuck on a boss for 1 or 2 days it clearly needs a nerf? Since when is being stuck on a boss for more than a day too much of a road block?

Hmm glad that attitude didn't exist in TBC, everyone would of been sunwell the day it came out.
I love how every time Blizzard nerfs a heroic boss that's ridiculously overtuned to the point where none of the best guilds have killed it yet the most vocal complaints come from casuals who have never done hard content in their lives.


Its over tuned how? Because it isn't killed in the first day or two?

Have you ever thought, hey maybe the best guilds might need to farm some more, get some more gear to get that little extra they need to kill the boss. You know similar to what the rest of the world does.

Or how about just maybe even the best of the best guilds still can learn and improve. How is having a little challenge a bad thing.

They are quick to condem when others have issues, but when they encounter a roadblock, clearly it can't be them, it must be the boss, must be blizzard, it can not possibly for the be them. It can't possibly be they don't have the gear, or in some cases the skill. Nope, clearly 1 or 2 days is all that is required in this day of age to kill a boss.

Maybe if they spent some weeks farming and fine tuning they'd kill the boss. Maybe then we'd see a real boss race and truly determine who the best of the best is.


As much as I agree with you, your thoughts are going to fall on deaf ears. For one, a lot of people just want things handed to them, even those who proclaim themselves hardcore or are in a top end guild. People like that see themselves as the top of the food chain after killing so many "easy" heroic modes. So when a fight like that comes out that actually shows them they aren't all that, they cry foul play. There are very few individuals who truly relish a challenge, and those guys are probably the ones that thought the fight was fine the way it is and didn't need any more nerfs.

Two, Blizzard agrees with these people. They refuse to let a fight be overtuned or remotely challenging, because they want these people to feel empowered or something, so they will keep playing the game and thinking they are badasses.

Three, we don't raid in guilds like those, so we definitely can't call them out on it. Afterall, them being in guilds like that simply because they have an amazing amount of time to devote to raiding, are able to hit their buttons well along with a small amount of situation awareness, or perhaps by luck/connections, means they can decide what's overtuned and what's not. What's overtuned you asked? Any fight that doesn't die in a day upon release even though you are barely geared for it apparently.

Oh, and I forgot. Four, because raiding is so much more accessible to everyone now, when someone sees that top guild X can't beat X boss, they see their guild with no chance, thus they want nerfs as well. Even though these are heroic modes and these guys should just stay in normal to begin with.

Such is WoW raiding now. Long live bosses dying in a week of release.


This is pretty pathetic blizzard. Just PLAIN PATHETIC. OMG a BOSS ISN'T KILLED WITHIN THE FIRST 10 MINUTES OMG NERF NERF.

Really, leave the bosses alone, let guilds bash their head against it for a period of time. Who cares if it takes weeks or months to get the boss down? Who cares if its the first or last boss.

This constant NERFING so everything can be killed within 5 minutes of its releasae is pathetic.

ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC.

Who cares if they are stuck for weeks or months?

Better yet Blizzard, just make one difficulty called FACE ROLL. Because that is apparently the only difficulty you seem to understand.

OMG OMG someone can't kill a boss in the first day wah wah, OMG OMG we better NERF NERF.

Sad VERY VERY SAD.


It's more pathetic that you are complaining about this yet have never cleared any heroic content.


Incorrect, I've killed heroic bosses, but my guild is no where near as overall skilled as other guilds. However, I've never once come in and ask for a nerf. I believe raiding should be harder than it currently is not easier. And yes that means I would get to see less, but each boss dead would be an accomplishment, that is how endgame should work.

I'm not ashamed to admit I'm not the best, but I'm also self confident enough to know that I can handle defeat and still be proud of what i accmplished with my guild.


This was already explained before. We don't necessarily like doing these changes like this, but sometimes we see a need for it based on what we think an acceptable rate of progression for an encounter should be. We still have the Terrace of Endless Spring on the way and these Raids aren't the end of what we have planned for Raiding during the expansion. We'll work to get you all a better update on developer design philosophy on how they feel progression should play out at some point in the near future.

I wasn't joking when I said I acknowledged the feedback that I've seen. It's understandable that for some, the changes are welcome, for others they are a source of some frustration. There's only so much we can do to minimize this. Ultimately, the question will always come back to, "Is the encounter more fun than frustrating or more frustrating than fun?"


So .. acceptable rate of progression is someone is stuck on a boss for 1 or 2 days it clearly needs a nerf? Since when is being stuck on a boss for more than a day too much of a road block?

Hmm glad that attitude didn't exist in TBC, everyone would of been sunwell the day it came out.

If you had ever done Sunwell (or anything hard for that matter) you would remember that it was gated and that the bosses that weren't gated were killed very quickly. Also you may recall that Vashj was nerfed before anyone killed it in BC as well because the MC mechanic was broken (just like this fight). The only difference now is that Blizzard is able to hotfix things quickly instead of waiting for a patch to get changes in. Get a clue and go post somewhere about things that actually affect you (LFR Garalon threads maybe?).

Oh, and the top 5 or so guilds now are raiding 9+ hours a day 6 days a week and raiding on alts to make optimal group comps which is MUCH more than anyone did back then as well...
So .. acceptable rate of progression is someone is stuck on a boss for 1 or 2 days it clearly needs a nerf? Since when is being stuck on a boss for more than a day too much of a road block?

Hmm glad that attitude didn't exist in TBC, everyone would of been sunwell the day it came out.


Pally with no heroic kills says what? I cant hear you over the sound of how much your opinion on this doesnt matter.
this thread has gone downhill very quickly


So .. acceptable rate of progression is someone is stuck on a boss for 1 or 2 days it clearly needs a nerf? Since when is being stuck on a boss for more than a day too much of a road block?

Hmm glad that attitude didn't exist in TBC, everyone would of been sunwell the day it came out.

If you had ever done Sunwell (or anything hard for that matter) you would remember that it was gated and that the bosses that weren't gated were killed very quickly. Also you may recall that Vashj was nerfed before anyone killed it in BC as well because the MC mechanic was broken (just like this fight). Get a clue.


That is wrong. Several Sunwell bosses took time to kill. Muru himself took 3 days for the first kill. 3 days is a long time for a top end guild who was pumping it hours and hours. No one cried nerf for it back then. Not to mention because of gating, the guilds actually had time to gear themselves up before the next encounter. The same can't be said about the current situation where heroic modes are attempted with bare minimum gear.

Also, Vashj was killed before the nerf by Method using the soulstone trick plus outranging the AE fear by striders with their tanks and just straight tanking it instead of kiting. If you are going act high and mighty and try to spout "facts", at least know your !@#$.


It's more pathetic that you are complaining about this yet have never cleared any heroic content.


Incorrect, I've killed heroic bosses, but my guild is no where near as overall skilled as other guilds. However, I've never once come in and ask for a nerf. I believe raiding should be harder than it currently is not easier. And yes that means I would get to see less, but each boss dead would be an accomplishment, that is how endgame should work.

I'm not ashamed to admit I'm not the best, but I'm also self confident enough to know that I can handle defeat and still be proud of what i accmplished with my guild.


from: 4/6 msv normal

lmfao
11/08/2012 04:52 PMPosted by Mnemonic
When the best guilds in the world can't kill the first boss of the instance, the rest of the playerbase has literally zero chance.


So? Heroics aren't for the rest of us, they are for the best of the best.

That is why we have LFR that is why we have NORMAL.

Who cares if only a small percentage will get past the first boss.

Everyone will see the content through LFR, some will get better loot in NORMAL and some will get better loot still in HEROIC. However everyone will see and kill all the bosses thanks to LFR. Let the best of the best, get the best by being the best.

No one is missing out on content, just loot and loot no offense isn't content.

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