Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

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Sitting at 8 90s, and I'm thinking the OP just burnt himself out. Getting that much gear on one char is a large undertaking, doing it on a new class while getting out an alt army is pushing it hard.

The big secret to enjoying dailies? NEVER do them every day. In fact, if you have over 100 lesser coins on a Wednesday then you can safely take the rest of the week off. You're not getting gear that much faster and all you're doing is buying yourself more "sit in town while queue" time down the road.
For me, it just feels likes their trying to control exactly how fast we progress a little too much. Everything, from Rep grinds, to gear vendors just feels way too gated. And there's no shortcuts at all. It will take you exactly so long to get so far now. It makes the game feel less open-ended to me.

I know they want to avoid another situation where everyone races to the end and demands more content faster than Blizz can make it. But now it's this perpetual feeling of looking at how long it's going to take you to finish a specific grind and going "ugh, I really don't want to do this".

I understand the best content rewards have to take a certain amount of time, but does everything have to be like this?
11/12/2012 04:30 PMPosted by Zarhym
Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


Why are Scenarios, Dungeons and Raids not a great way to gear up?

Raiding - This is not a gearing option because you need gear to raid. Saying a way to get gear is to raid is backwards thinking. You do other stuff to get gear TO raid, raiding just gives you better gear so you can continue raiding and doing harder content but to get gear to raid you don't raid ...

Scenarios - Although fun give you a really really really low chance at an item, and that item can have any stats, so it "could" be BiS, or terrible. It isn't reliable at all and isn't worth your time if you consider raiding or getting gear, dungeons are far far far far far better.

Dungeons - Great way to get to 463 ilvl but after that they are worthless. The epics at the end have a stupidly low drop rate. My hunter friend has done GotSS every day since release and has never seen the epic bow, I've never seen an epic ever from any dungeon and I did GoTSS a lot with him, and did Strat a lot for that staff lol.

Why are PVP and Dailies are Mandatory?

PVP - Conquest gear is 483 which is better then crafted gear and better then dungeon gear, and better then the epics that drop at the end of heroics. They are a great source of gear for raiding!

Dailies/Rep - Are the best way to get gear outside of raiding because ....
>They give 489 gear, which is on part with raiding gear and its better then Dungeons /Crafted /Scenarios /PVP gear
>The only thing to spend valor is on rep vendors and the only way to get rep is to do dailies.
>They are the best/quickest/most efficient way to farm valor because you can do it at anytime, plus you get gold with it, dungeons have long ques unless you have 4 friends.

Rep and PVP are mandatory because they are the best way to get gear outside of raiding, Dailies are mandatory because it is the only way to get rep to buy that gear, I don't understand how you guys don't see this.
I got to 90 and have walked away from the game after playing since 2008...because I realized that I do not raid and have no need to go any further because I am only a casual player.

Tried alts, nope I will not level again, so it is back to other games for me :)
11/12/2012 04:30 PMPosted by Zarhym
Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


I understand the tabard rep argument giving too much incentive to do dungeons, but didn't you swing too far in the other direction with dailies?

Dailies give lesser charm of good fortune, valor, gold, and rep. While dungeons now basically only give valor/jp. Dailies continue to be useful even in future patches due to the lesser charms of good fortune, whereas you can get full 463 dungeon gear in about a week. Without dailies you don't get rep, without rep you cant spend valor, so once you get your 463 set, no sense in doing dungeons for the valor you can't spend.

The daily thing may have worked better if they had been released in a staggered way. Past expansions released 1 set at a time, so you could complete current set before some new patch added a new set. 6+ sets of 20 dailies each with no daily quest cap is quickly overwhelming especially if you have limited play time. 5.1 is about to introduce another set when a lot of the player base is barely done or not done (or just hates) the current ones.

Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


Not that I agree with the OP on all his points, but from a personal standpoint, what makes me feel like dailies are "required" is that everything that you can spend valor on is locked behind a reputation, and those reputations can only be done by doing dailies. Yes, you can do dungeons and scenarios, and raids and raid-finder, and those are all fun, don't get me wrong. But the currency you reward players with for doing those things is completely not usable unless you also do dailies. This fact, more than anything, burns me out on dailies, and also reduces the enjoyment I get out of other endgame stuff that awards valor.

This is also compounded for me because I never even touched Dread Wastes; I hit 90 in townlong steppes. That makes a good portion of the valor items inaccessible to me until I complete an entire other zone. Even if there were no alternative means of reputation (i.e., tabards), in Cata or Wrath not unlocking a faction would not reduce my ability to buy valor items. I just really do not think valor rewards should be rep-locked. You already have a weekly cap, and the pieces cost enough to require multiple weeks to purchase even one piece. It's too much.
Can't you buy valor items at honored and revered? It doesn't take a whole lot of dailies to do that.
People can argue all day and night about how dailies are and are not mandatory.

1. Dailies are required to spend VP

This is bad. It has nothing to do with the iLevel of VP gear, or VP gear being required for raids (it is not) or any other nonsensical reason people put forth.

It's bad because we earn currency we have absolutely no way to spend. You can't just decide to do something else with your VP. You can do absolutely zero with it unless you do dailies.

If you do PvP and get PvP currency, you get to spend it.
If you do dungeons and raids you get dungeon and raid currency, but you don't get to spend it.
You have to do questing (solo content) to spend your group content currency and that is a bizarre connection that I truly do not understand.

Sure that will change with 5.1 but if that system wasn't ready for launch, a different means of spending VP without a rep grind should have been in place. Capping a currency you cannot use is not fun, engaging, or brimming with choice.
11/12/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Changalang
Zarhym all you ever are is a condescending dickface, I sincerely hope you get mugged so I can explain to you how you liked it.
I liked your posts Zarhym, keep up the good work.
11/12/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Faera
Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


Scenarios's do not contribute to "character power"... A slim chance at a RNG blue for a random slot isn't really progression, it's about as much progression as farming Spiders and getting an epic, just less rare...


Or running five mans and not seeing a drop, and if you do see it not winning it...
Finally ready to call it quits, realized today after almost 8 years of playing that I just didn't enjoy the game anymore.

MoP ruined this game for people like me, I have a family, and I cannot and WILL not be forced into doing dailies across all my toons or hell even ONE toon in order to progressively gear my characters.

The new loot system for LFR, Sha, etc is completely unbearable, constantly seeing 28g pop up across all my toons gives me ZERO incentive to continue grinding out the casual content I am used to.

And its not like I havent given it time, I leveled nine classes to 90, and going through the same content over and over wasn't so bad, its the point where you get to 90 and you are pigeon holed into grinding dailies over and over or PVP'ing (which I do NOT enjoy). So I canceled today, which is saying alot because I play alot and used to enjoy this game massively.

Some will flame me, blizz will probably close the post, but truth be told, if they don't address these things soon there will be many following suit.

There is definitely legitimacy to your post, and we've been reading a lot of the feedback players have been sharing lately as we evaluate our endgame progression systems. Even as World of Warcraft evolves over each expansion, and as happy as we are with the experience we crafted for Mists of Pandaria, we always know we can do better.

Having said all of that, I'm just not personally sure we can design a game that's going to feel fresh and rife with content every time you login, if the expectation is that the average World of Warcraft player will have nine level-90 characters less than two months after the expansion's release. I really don't mean this as a judgment of how you choose to spend your time, either. But when considering everything you said in your post -- you mention needing time for family and enjoying casual content -- your noted (or implied) play time really sticks out.

Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


I feel I had to chip in on this. I love scenarios, I highly enjoy dungeons, I just outright cannot find a reason to do them. They feel like I'm wasting my time.

Getting the blue gear is easy. Roughly 10-15 dungeons and you're fairly well geared, give it another 15-20 and you're done. That's it - no more reason to run the dungeons. Sure, You can cap your valor. Sure you can cap your justice, but Why? There's no 'fun' things to buy with them, there's no money to be made on them, you can't even spend valor unless you spend a month ahead of time grinding up terribly boring dailies... This system is BAD.

I outright don't even play this character anymore, except for when I need to do my raids. PVP balance is so bad it's not even funny, PVE balance is a joke as well (I've been told numerous times I will be the person who holds our group back when we hit Heroics, because Monk tanks are that bad, Some healers can push 140-180k hps going all out, while others can't even break 100k, and loldps.... hunters are lucky to beat our tanks in raids - Hell, I think if our priest healer went atonement healing...we'd be seeing a 7th place DPS who's executing his rotation perfectly).

Don't be mistaken, I'm not threatening with quitting or anything of the sort. I am not quitting, but it's not because WoW in itself is fun, It's because I have a strong group of friends I like being around. I hope there's a day again that I log in because I enjoy the game itself, but today is not that day. I enjoy my raid group, and I enjoy seeing all of my guildies downing that epic dragon to see a little tussle of rolls over their next shiney piece, but I'm starting to get off topic.

Dailies aren't fun to most. I understand the thought process behind dailies - and I think they have their place(cosmetic rewards for players is a great place for dailies), but being forced to do 45-90 dailies every. single. week., on top of the massive grind to revered so that I can actually spend my valor from doing the thigns I enjoy(Scenarios, Dungeons) is terrible.
I hate the LFR since day one, back in my day if you didnt have the time to do rep grinds, herioc/duengeon grinds and be a little talented while doing 25mans then maybe raiding was jsut not for you. People excepted that and did other things, people even didn't pvp if they didnt raid back in those days, they did things like grind gold to really good patterns and get crafting gear.

With dialies I never DO them, I do them while laughing on Vent and waiting for ques to pop for PVP, PVE and sometimes when someone is finished with RP.

Also have you given RP a chance, if the fact you have enough time to get 9 90,s you have a enough time to sit around silvermoon.
See he had time to level 9 classes to level 90, but he doesn't time to do dailies on one of the classes.

Heck, I only have 1 class at 90 the rest of my alts are just that alts.. I play them sure, but I am in no hurry to level them to 90..

I am just about as casual as the next person, I don't stress about getting gear and raiding at this point, because there is so much to do when you hit 90.. TBH my guild probably won't raid till late in the expansion lol so what's the hurry.

If family is really your issue, then how in the hell did you have time to level 9 toons to 90? I suspect family is the excuse he wants to use to bail on the game because he made into work instead of just enjoying it...

I look at dailies as money money money ;) I can complete the tillers in about 10 minutes... If I do Golden Lotus maybe 30 the rest of my night is free!


Some people enjoy playing each and every class. What the op is saying IMHO, is he can't be bothered playing like he wants to. He feels compelled to grind the dailies. I understand what the CM was saying, but at the end of the day, people who pay to play the game needs to feel like its an enjoyable process without taking too much time from what the player wants to do in game. I know it is a tough thing to balance for Blizzard, but they seem at times, to go out of their way to make the game ''grindy'' or gated. Yes I realize that people were QQ about nothing to do in cata, but on the flip side, you will have people QQ about things being grindy or gated....It's a no win situation that Blizzard is in, but there is a middle ground. Blizzard just never seems to find it. It's always over nerf something or making it completely op.
Finally ready to call it quits, realized today after almost 8 years of playing that I just didn't enjoy the game anymore.


I'm not going to flame you, but I think it's safe to say that has more to do with your decision than MoP. Eight years is an eternity to be playing the same game, and no matter what they do, it's going to grow stale at that point.

Just my opinion of course. Personally, I love MoP, and nearly everything about it. Except fatty goatsteaks. They can DIAF.
OP leveled 9 characters to 90, has been doing dailies and LFR with most of them, and is suddenly finding he doesn't have time for WoW?

Wat

I play two characters right now because I have very little time, I do not feel pressured to level and gear all of my characters. I have a job and other obligations, but even an hour or two a night is enough for me. If you can't play WoW without compulsively playing it 8 hours at a time, then that's probably your problem, and not so much WoW's fault but your own inability to manage and budget your time and set priorities. If you feel the compulsive need to level and gear 9 characters, that's on your end, not Blizzard's.

Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


raids????
if you check my gear, i m way overgeared for normal vaults, but i still never succeeded to kill a single boss. (you can verify my progression just by a click) DBM is telling me : 67 failed attempts so far. unless you are playing with 9 other 'very good player', you cant kill anything.

so out of dailies / reputations / lfr / Sha ... how i can have a chance to get better gear ?
we causal-raiders are condamned to do that.

me too soon i ll be gone. (and me too i was playing since 7 years)
11/12/2012 05:01 PMPosted by Ovan
If you want to spend your Valor Points, you have to level your reputation (at least until 5.1 upgrades). I leveled an alt to 90 and I just don't want to level up my reputations again, probably not even with the boost, so I have no use for Valor Points right now.


If you level by questing, you reach honored with the Klaxxi before you run out of their leveling quest chain. So, the VP items you get from that rep don't require a single daily.
11/12/2012 04:30 PMPosted by Zarhym
Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


While 9 level 90s in the game feels somewhat excessive... the reputation grind of dailies is kind of important because you need it to unlock gear, mounts, etc.

The problem is a unique one, I believe. The shift of valor to dailies was nice for people who don't like to run dungeons, or find the ground experience a bit of a hassle; but the shift of reputation purely to dailies by removing tabards has had the same experience of making dungeons less valuable. Take an example of if you log in for an hour or so after work, after your day: You have a choice of either doing a few dailies, running a few dungeons, doing some PvP, raiding, or scenarios.

However, the problem is that out of all those options, dailies offer you the best combination for your time.

For example:

Option 1) With dailies, you get both valor, rep, and gold. The valor lets you buy gear, the rep lets you unlock the vendors, the gold is nice, etc.

The downside, of course, is the grind, and the sheer number of reps. Personally, I don't know how this will work for alts with me. I have a few, none yet 90, and the idea of doing any of it again doesn't feel me with excitement.

Option 2) Should you decide to run a heroic, you end up with valor, gear, gold, but no rep. At a certain point in this equation, your valor caps and you are either forced to run dailies to gain the rep to unlock better items, or you swap it to conquest for PvP gear. In the game currency, blue is not purple, and no one wishes to hang around in blues and eventually, you reach a point where unless you do the dailies, the valor caps and is wasted.

The loss of tabards for rep was, I think, a large quality of life issue. Personally, I have felt that without them, dungeons have lost some of their appeal--even with the current ease at which they can be done.

Option 3) Should you run a scenario, you can get valor and gold and maybe gear. The same problem of valor exists as with option two, but with the lack of reward that is inherant in the scenarios (I think there should be loot tables, even at a 458ilevel) they fall in this awkward position of being about achievement points and gameplay, but without a sense of progress attached to them.

I mean, don't get me wrong: I think scenarios have a huge potential, but right now, if you're on a limited time schedule, and you have a raid at the end of the week, and a reason to be valor capped to buy gear... they're not real appealing.

Option 4) Raiding.

Now, for a long time, the end game of PvE in WoW has been raiding, and it remains so, and it really doesn't fall into any of the problems that exist between dailies/dungeons/scenarios, but it is impacted by the others. In the case of LFR, the ilevel to get into each can force an individual into the rep grind just to hit that level. But int he case of a regular raid, the rep grind of dailies over dungeons becomes an interesting one because, at this point, where everyone is struggling to get gear, get organised and get moving... gear makes it easier. Gear helps. It helps healing, tanking, dps, and these all exist in a circular notion, playing off each other in the design of the game.

And if you have a raid, a regular one, and regardless of its level, the gear helps you along to either beat a normal or heroic boss, then you're going to do what you can to get that gear in the first place, right?

I mean, after all, the people you play with are real, and you want to show the respect to them first, even if it means struggling through the rep grind of dailies that is there.
I got to 90 and have walked away from the game after playing since 2008...because I realized that I do not raid and have no need to go any further because I am only a casual player.

Tried alts, nope I will not level again, so it is back to other games for me :)


Out of curiosity, what did you do every other expansion after hitting level cap? >.<

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