Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

General Discussion
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11/14/2012 03:46 AMPosted by Osmeric
Yes, Normal MV is still meant to be accessible by semi casual players, which is why there is a FURTHER level of encounter for the raid which ensists of heroic.


At this point, according to wowprogress.com, about 125K people have cleared Normal MV in NA/EU/KR (and about 330K have downed at least one boss there.) (*)

That's hardly "semi-casual". That's a tiny slice of the player population. The semi-casual raider from previous expansions is in the LFR ghetto, if he/she is raiding at all.

(*) Found by multiplying the number of tracked guilds that have progressed that far by the average raid size of said guilds; multiply by a small fudge factor to account for bench.


And I fully expect a 5% nerf to roll into MV in the next 3-4 weeks. That timeline is somewhat dictated by the addition of new raid bosses every single week into LFR. Next week in LFR there will be 4 more bosses. That's 16 bosses a week to get loot from, even with relatively low drop rates - you're odds are pretty good with that many bosses. So, people should be gearing up.

Then add on 6 more bosses to that from MV, 22 bosses a week. I'd imagine some casuals having a tough time even keeping up with that much raid content.
I agree with OP.

This is not an alt-friendly expansion.

I enjoy being an alt-a-holic. Yes - I have my main but when I am done raiding I love to tinker with various alts and leveling up their professions.

I just can't do the dailies thing. (I know..."nobody forces you to") It feels like work.

I just don't know what to do now.

TORtanic went F2P and I HATE F2P games.

I never got into League of Legends, RIFT was meh, Guild Wars was meh, Lucas Arts killed off SWG.

I think I am done with MMO's. I am no longer in their target demographic.

I guess I will just bring out my old PS2 games like SSX 3 and enjoy something that doesn't feel like work.

Thanks Blizz. I did enjoy this game but I think we are no longer right for each other.
Dude sit down and calculate the number

5 valor points per daily quest
40 valor points per heroic run
25 heroic runs to hit 1000 valor points
25-30 minutes per heroic run (smooth run)
25 heroic runs = 10.5 hours - 12.5 hours
Then grinding for Rep if they want to get some valor gears

So if you have 1-2 days of work and have couple hours to play this game. You will have a pretty hard time to enjoy the game and gear up. So Blizzard is heading to the wrong direction or Blizzard is grinding players' dollars and milk the heck out of us...lol... :)


The price hasn't changed, and there's overall more to do. Personally I feel like I'm getting more content for my money, not getting ripped off.

Sometimes I feel like half the people complain about dailies are really impartial to the concept, but dislike the daily frequency and that they can't valor cap 4-5 toons in 4-5 hours each wee.
This is not an alt-friendly expansion.

I enjoy being an alt-a-holic. Yes - I have my main but when I am done raiding I love to tinker with various alts and leveling up their professions.

I just can't do the dailies thing. (I know..."nobody forces you to") It feels like work.


This.

It's exactly why I've given up on bothering with post 85 content-- it's just not fun for me. I've actually been considering starting a level cap guild that is for people who want to cap their toons at 70, 80, and 85 and just run old stuff for fun.

I'm not whining, I really don't care if they change anything or not, I can find fun in other aspects of the game. I just really wish I had been smart enough to try MoP before wasting my money on it.
But you can level up alts, do their professions, gear them through heroics - and now LFR with 12 bosses and 16 next week. I feel like that's tons to do on an alt, even in the absence of spending valor.

What else would you do on that alt you aren't? Raid normal mode and heroic raids?

As I remembered in Cata, we only have to run 12-13 heroics to hit 1000. It was half compared to MOP. I believed 80VPs per heroic in Cata Xpac.


Ok, but 1000/80 = 12.5. So it's about the same as in Cata, no?
...
i know what you mean.. I've played this game since release and I agree with you. the loot system in LFR and sha etc really is annoying, i've done LFR since MV was available and i have wasted rerolls on every boss and i have only gotten 6 items from BOTH of my 90s, thats a LOT of rolls and it gets me really tick off to see 28g.. i waste more on my repairs than what get in LFR lol wish they gave more gold at least!
I typically don't chime in on these kind of threads when I settle in to take a break from WoW but I'm really concerned with the state of the game and the direction it's going.

Personally, I think Blizz spread itself a bit too much trying to tackle so many different things this expansion instead of focusing on what has just worked in the past. Cata may have tripped a lot but it did do plenty of things right and I feel that MoP kind of ignored those positives and just went for a whole bunch of new systems that frankly feel just as off as Cata's negatives. There's the daily system that feels like an unrewarding grind (And yes, I know 100% that you don't need to do them for progression purposes. Doesn't change the fact that they still feel horrible). The end game feels like a total unrewarding grind as well even moreso than Cata which is really saying something. And PvP... well, I'll address that at the bottom.

That isn't to say that MoP isn't filled with a ton of positives. I think the difficulty increase to LFR is incredibly smart and breaks it away from it just being something I would run every week for gear and instead becomes actual entry level raiding to Normals which is fantastic. There's plenty of different end-game content to partake in which is what we've been asking for but in that, a lot of it just feels... unpolished perhaps? I know this isn't all that helpful but it feels like it's lacking that Blizzard touch. Pet Battle system is a great idea and seems like it has a lot of depth but it just doesn't have that addicting feeling that I usually get from something by Blizzard despite it being new to the game. Same goes for Scenerios, Lorewalkers, and even the upcoming Brawler's Guild (coming from a PTR experience). In all that variety, none of it holds my attention like it should and I can't put my finger on why.

Then there's the PvP and this is kind of where I've just given up on. There was so much promise from the discussion going into MoP about how amazing PvP would be and my hopes just rose and rose like a helium filled balloon only to be popped. Feedback was given time and time again throughout the beta and even in the opening weeks of the xpac only to be ignored through and through. We knew about the Warrior dominance. We knew about the Stampede bug. We knew that off-healing and possibly healing in general was much to high. And we still know that instant cc is out of hand. We were told that combat would be slowed down with the base resilience but alas, it wasn't meant to be. Bottom line: It's not fun and worse, it's not even entertaining. Watching both the Gamescom Arena tournament and the Curse Arena tournament feeding into the WCS was so disappointing and uninteresting that I wasn't even able to watch more than a few matches before closing the browser.

I plan on keeping tabs on WoW as I often do during a break in hopes that this issues are resolved at some point because I love this game and Blizzard in general way too much to separate myself entirely from it but I think Blizzard has really lost touch with it's customer base these last couple of years over it's entire ecosystem and that's really sad. Please find that focus that makes you the amazing company you are and get it back into your games. It's great that you're trying so many different things but don't let the rest of your games suffer because of it. Thanks so much for reading this all if you did and I'm sure I'll be back some day ^_^

Edit: I forgot about the LFR loot complaints but I'll "try" to keep it short. The idea of people rolling against themselves to prevent drama works great in theory but it falls in the general problem that D3 suffers in it's loot system. If you don't feel like you ever are capable of winning loot, you're going to have an upset player base and that's what the new system does. The fact you never actually see any loot dropping (despite its still dropping for some players) is incredibly irritating and even though you say it does drop, the vast majority or going to feel that it's not. Even if drama ensued from the old system, at least people saw that loot was dropping and that was enough motivation for them to go back in next week. The ninja-ing was a problem in Cata but this new loot system is far far worse in my opinion just from a morale standpoint. But of course, you can't please everyone.

Edit 2: Maybe I should just keep this window up instead of pressing submit each time as I remember something I forgot :(. Hopefully this is the last one. It's nice that you're realizing that some people want challenging things as a solo player with the inclusion of the Brawler's Guild. I hope that you carry that mentality over to PvP and offer a ranking system and ladders for solo-queuers because for many, it's just ridiculously hard to get anything going. RBGs are great in theory but it's crazy hard to break into those if you don't have any credentials in terms of rating. It's like WotLK mentality all over again in raiding where if you don't have the achievement, you aren't getting into raids. And before you say that this solo idea won't work, might I point your attention over to LoL. I know, it's like comparing apples to oranges but the simple fact that it exists in a successful market should at least bring it into question. People have been begging for Arena Skirmishes to return and this just seems like the natural order of progression (assuming we ever get those back again. Yes, they didn't get much use back in the day but times have changed dramatically). If so many people ask for a thing, don't you think it's worth looking into?
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Another cool part about this idea is that we can probably make it work through the UI, rather than requiring you to wear a tabard you may not think matches your bracers (teehee). It could be as simple as making it so that you champion the faction you selected to show as your XP bar.

I like the idea of using the UI to select the rep very much. As it stands, I either carry the extra tabards or visit the bank to swap tabards. Either way, I lose storage.

Maybe, one day, the tabards can be organized like the mount/pet journal? We can pick from a list, instead of storing 100 tabards in the bank. :D
I posted the idea that I had given at some point in this thread over here:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7004038142

This could end all the Daily issue but idk.. I just thought I'd drop my 2 cents. It got some nice feedback on this thread.


I like the idea, but it seems oddly like early Cataclysm which didn't go over well.
At this point, according to wowprogress.com, about 125K people have cleared Normal MV in NA/EU/KR (and about 330K have downed at least one boss there.) (*)


Difficulty is hardly the problem anymore. Lack of leadership is. Guilds fail and struggle to deliver enough action for all of their members, because there aren't enough people to lead all those raids, and raid leadership in its current implementation is demanding.

Blizzard could add, as an option an LFR version of each raid, which will be of standard difficulty, but will allow for 40 players instead of 25, so the fault tolerance of the group will be increased to compensate for the lack of leadership.

Such groups can have the following composition.

-3 tanks instead of 2, in case one of the tanks dies, which is very likely to happen.
-9 healers instead of 6, to compensate for the deficiencies of a leaderless group.
-Rest DPS, to compensate for DPS'ers dying too much to fire and boss abilities and low DPS.

There you have it. Fun for the whole family. Lovers of PUG's will finally get to see the real content, on real difficulty, adjusted for their mentality and way of doing things and will have a chance to roll on real loot and get real achievements for it.

There should be of course some restrictions for this.

-Shared lockout so real raiders won't double-dip.
-Same amount of loot, not increased and not adjust for the additional 15 people.

Tons of people will feel real happy if Blizzard do this for them.
11/14/2012 05:10 AMPosted by Allyse
At this point, according to wowprogress.com, about 125K people have cleared Normal MV in NA/EU/KR (and about 330K have downed at least one boss there.) (*)


Difficulty is hardly the problem anymore. Lack of leadership is. Guilds fail and struggle to deliver enough action for all of their members, because there aren't enough people to lead all those raids, and raid leadership in its current implementation is demanding.


Yeah, that was a huge downside of the shift to 10 man raiding (90+% of tracked guilds are raiding in 10 man format): it more than doubled the need for raid leaders.
There's the daily system that feels like an unrewarding grind (And yes, I know 100% that you don't need to do them for progression purposes. Doesn't change the fact that they still feel horrible). The end game feels like a total unrewarding grind as well even moreso than Cata which is really saying something.


Well I think the dailies could have been better for more people to swallow if the grind was simply faster. Golden Lotus and Klaxxi specifically offered very low reputation gains for the time spent, especially with more factions gated behind Golden Lotus.

LFR I think is fine, people still need to learn the fights. DS early on had it's speed bumps, particularly on spine and madness I remember. People are still learning these - but I cleared HoF last week post Garalon nerf, and HoF pt 2 this week already. I did queue with 6 guildies this week, but 6/25 isn't enough to carry the raid.

PvP I haven't touched really. It's something I'll do later when I have more time.
11/14/2012 05:13 AMPosted by Osmeric


Difficulty is hardly the problem anymore. Lack of leadership is. Guilds fail and struggle to deliver enough action for all of their members, because there aren't enough people to lead all those raids, and raid leadership in its current implementation is demanding.


Yeah, that was a huge downside of the shift to 10 man raiding (90+% of tracked guilds are raiding in 10 man format): it more than doubled the need for raid leaders.


I get that, but why does everyone want to just be the peon in the raid? Is leading them so hard? Read the DJ, watch a few videos, and dole out assignments. When things go wrong, talk it over with the group and decide on what changes make sense.
11/14/2012 05:14 AMPosted by Firestyle
I get that, but why does everyone want to just be the peon in the raid? Is leading them so hard?


A leader has to understand all the roles, and all the classes. Most people are either not up to it or find it too much work or responsibility.

The increasing complexity of raid encounters doesn't help at all.
11/12/2012 08:36 PMPosted by Zarhym
Even though we are posting long posts I hope blizzard reads this, and we aren't just wasting our time.

There's a reason that it's 8:45 p.m. here, and I'm still at work and STARVING. ;p


Aww sorry to read this.

Here is a plate of cookies and a glas of milk.

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