Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

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11/12/2012 05:20 PMPosted by Lukenukem
zahrym what you said is offensive.

That's silly. The idea that I should have a placating "grin and bear it" approach to players on the forums -- as was discussed last week -- is what you should actually find offensive. And I'm only responding to this to make a quick point:

A lot of people have called my recent posts (and me personally) any number of negative things. Let me just say that I read a lot of great critical posts on the forums everyday -- there are some great ones in this thread. And we're constantly discussing the feedback with our developers. Just because I'm challenging a person's analysis of the game doesn't mean I'm not listening to them, or don't think they're making any good points.

If I can offer counterpoints to threads that will focus the debate on further specifics and details of a topic, that allows me to take more succinct feedback to the developers, often times including many of the great suggestions I see. ;)

Just let it be known there's a reason I started my post this way:

11/12/2012 04:30 PMPosted by Zarhym
There is definitely legitimacy to your post, and we've been reading a lot of the feedback players have been sharing lately as we evaluate our endgame progression systems. Even as World of Warcraft evolves over each expansion, and as happy as we are with the experience we crafted for Mists of Pandaria, we always know we can do better.

Anyway! :)

11/12/2012 05:25 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
Because you have locked away a portion of the progression path behind endless dailies.

But character progression isn't blocked entirely "behind endless dailies." You can get into Raid Finder without any reputation rewards. Sure, it's clearly more effective to be earning some steady reputation with the core factions (which is the point) while running other content, but that's less relevant when an argument is made in absolute statements, such as "forced," "mandatory," and "locked away."

I'm not naive and I know that if you invest more time into your character by doing dailies along side your group content, your rate of progression will be faster. And again, that's by design. But certainly we enjoy hearing feedback about the design and how things could be tweaked to improve the model.

For instance, we talked recently to the developers about an evolution on the idea of being able to champion a faction via a tabard. What we don't want to repeat is the design that let players max out every faction reputation just by wearing a tabard while doing other content. So instead of endlessly getting reputation for every dungeon, maybe you only get a bonus once a day. It doesn't allow you to skip dailies altogether, but you can at least pad your rep gains a little bit.

Another cool part about this idea is that we can probably make it work through the UI, rather than requiring you to wear a tabard you may not think matches your bracers (teehee). It could be as simple as making it so that you champion the faction you selected to show as your XP bar.

And since it's brought up a lot, I completely understand the existing concerns players have about earning Valor through other sources and being locked from spending it for reputation rewards. It's something we'll continue to talk about -- be precise and feel free to suggest improvements!

It's worth throwing out there that it really doesn't take many daily quests to hit Honored with Golden Lotus, and you can easily hit Honored with The Klaxxi before you even unlock their daily quests. So it doesn't take much to give you a bear minimum of two ilvl 458 blues to spend JP on, and two ilvl 489 epics to spend VP on. That's a pretty fair boon if you're climbing to ilvl 460.

Important! I want to make sure it's totally clear one last time. I'm not saying our model is perfect and your feedback is incorrect. I'm trying to offer counterpoints so we can all signal in on the root of some of the popular concerns within the community. Operative word: TRYING. :D
Having said all of that, I'm just not personally sure we can design a game that's going to feel fresh and rife with content every time you login, if the expectation is that the average World of Warcraft player will have nine level-90 characters less than two months after the expansion's release. I really don't mean this as a judgment of how you choose to spend your time, either. But when considering everything you said in your post -- you mention needing time for family and enjoying casual content -- your noted (or implied) play time really sticks out.

Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


Here's my incoherent rant:

I'm working on my fourth and fifth 90's right now and essentially I see my progression as:
- If I need a 450 weapon when I hit 90, I will do Arena of Annihilation
- Buy cheap PVP gear to get my ilvl up to run heroics until I can queue for raid finder

Heroics alone won't get me into raid finder, so I just transfer my boa epic inscription staff around to get those extra points. My guild even has boe gear sitting in the guild bank that we use solely to be able to queue for things. People withdraw it and put it back when they're done. It's generally cloth armor since all classes can "equip" it.

I would do more dailies on this toon, but I'm bored to tears with them. I'm not even exalted with most factions, so non of my other characters will qualify for the double bonus, which I probably wouldn't take advantage of anyway since the reputation grind takes so long.

When 5.1 hits, my progression path for all characters will be hit 90, run heroics, upgrade gear to get into raid finder, run raid finder, upgrade loot I get from that in order to queue for the next level of raid finder. Repeat.

Getting gear from raid finder seems to take a lot longer than it used to with the older loot system... and then when I win something, it's a piece I don't need (a lower ilvl neck piece, or a trinket I've already got).

Scenarios are very boring. They don't have any type of epic feel to them the way dungeon boss fights do. The "rewards" are also very lackluster. There's zero incentive to do any of them beyond the very first time just to see what the scenario is about. The ONLY scenario I'd even considering running at this point is Arena of Annihilation because of the quest reward you get that I mentioned earlier, and even then I don't always need that. Scenarios might as well not exist in the game. They're a waste of time -- especially when I "should" be grinding reputations that actually net rewards... eventually. Maybe have scenarios start to provide reputation upon completion? Increase the drop rate of Motes of Harmony in scenarios?

Anyhow, what pushes even casual people to feel that reputation grind is necessary is because it takes ilvl to get into certain levels of content. The only way to get your ilvl up, without doing normal raids, is to grind reputations for an eternity, or buy crafted gear. You can't even craft your own gear most of the time since most of the recipes now require a reputation grind. Some professions are not providing a level playing field in terms of items you can craft. For example, inscription gets multiple ilvl 476 items it can craft that are learned directly from the inscription trainer (three boa staves, two boe off hands). Engineering can craft a 476 helmet that is learned directly from the trainer, as well. Other professions do not get the same perk of the easy ilvl boost these items provide. Even the alchemy trinket had been dumbed down to a ilvl 450 blue since the last expansion's ilvl 359 epic..

A lot of casual players don't care what their actual equipped ilvl is. They just want to boost it to get into lfr so they can try and actually get decent gear. If all professions expanded on their freely acquired recipes, it'd make it much easier for people to hit that special number and move on to content that is more engaging than repeating the same quests for weeks.

I know, people argue against that saying it's lame that people get in without the appropriate equipped ilvl, but equipped ilvl isn't everything. A good fire mage in a mix of 450 and 463 gear can easily be in the top 10, or even top 5, of a raid finder group's dps charts. A lot of that is about the player itself, and I'd assume that people that don't fit that category of being good with a low ilvl wouldn't know how to get their average ilvl up in the first place to get into lfr.

I wouldn't mind reputations as much if there were alternate ways to build those reputations (more daily dungeon quests for factions? tabards!), but as it is now, I doubt I will touch MoP reputations much more than I already have.

With all of that said, I am NOT a bad WoW player. I think the first tier of Cataclysm was some of the most technically difficult ever made, and my raid group (when we used to raid, now we are ALL "casual" players) cleared all the way up to Nefarion and Cho'gall wearing mostly heroic blues. I just don't have time to devote to something like that anymore and have no dedicated raiding group. Dailies feel like they are supposed to be the next step of progression after heroic dungeons, so people feel that is why they are required, and having to fly all over Pandaria to pick up daily quests and then complete those same quests, which you've already completed several times over already, isn't very fun. Time is my limiting factor, and I don't want to use all my spare time, aside from leveling, doing the same daily quests forever and a half. I was hoping the Firelands dailies would not return, but now that has essentially become every new faction in the game.
11/12/2012 04:30 PMPosted by Zarhym
There is definitely legitimacy to your post, and we've been reading a lot of the feedback players have been sharing lately as we evaluate our endgame progression systems. Even as World of Warcraft evolves over each expansion, and as happy as we are with the experience we crafted for Mists of Pandaria, we always know we can do better.


There's a fundamental flaw buried deep in this part of your post. Oh yes, 'we always know we can do better.' You don't seem to understand that some things about the game are already in a great place, and SHOULDN'T EVER BE CHANGED AGAIN.

The way players geared up for pvp in Cata was great. You could literally do anything, and if you spent a enough time doing it, you would have a full set of premium pvp gear. This time around, we have to specifically do Arena or random BGs before we do rated BGs, or we can't cap our points. This time around, we can't do heroics or raids to earn valor points to convert to conquest. Dailies reward VALOR POINTS but not CONQUEST POINTS.

You guys literally took something which was working GREAT and made it clunky and terrible for anyone except the most extreme players who do EVERYTHING 150% ANYWAY.

I don't have enough space to list all the things which were great about cata, that got ultimately screwed over by MoP changes.

But the point is that NO, YOU CAN'T ALWAYS DO BETTER. At some point you've done the BEST THAT YOU CAN, and you should either scrap something completely or leave it alone. There's a major lapse in judgement this expansion, it's pretty obvious that many decisions were made without a single thought regarding the ramifications of those changes. It's almost as if you guys are so stumped on how to make this game better, that you literally drew ideas out of a hat and implemented them no matter how nonsensical they were.
Yes, a person with bad gear is always going to be equal to someone with good gear.

This is the kind of person who likes this system folks - a complete moron.


A complete moron, because you disagree with their opinion? They didn't say a person with good gear is equal to a person with bad gear. They were pointing out that you do not need valor gear to do well in raid. You do not need valor gear to progress in raid. The fact that the gear level from valor is on par from what DROPS in normal raids should be a clue to that.
11/12/2012 06:57 PMPosted by Baeloro
There's a fundamental flaw buried deep in this part of your post. Oh yes, 'we always know we can do better.' You don't seem to understand that some things about the game are already in a great place, and SHOULDN'T EVER BE CHANGED AGAIN.


According to you at least. I rather like the way things are now. Just because you thought something was perfect doesn't necessarily mean everyone agrees with you. Everyone has a different view of what's good and what's bad in this game. Blizzard can't please everyone.
I'm not naive and I know that if you invest more time into your character by doing dailies along side your group content, your rate of progression will be faster. And again, that's by design. But certainly we enjoy hearing feedback about the design and how things could be tweaked to improve the model.

For instance, we talked recently to the developers about an evolution on the idea of being able to champion a faction via a tabard. What we don't want to repeat is the design that let players max out every faction reputation just by wearing a tabard while doing other content. So instead of endlessly getting reputation for every dungeon, maybe you only get a bonus once a day. It doesn't allow you to skip dailies altogether, but you can at least pad your rep gains a little bit.


Will say it again, what is wrong with killing 500 mobs in dungeons when you kill that much or more while doing dailies? What difference is there between months worth of dailies and hashing out instances? Bring back frequently dropped items like sunfury signets, arcane tomes, relics of ulduar. What is so wrong with letting us get rep the way we want? we pay to play your game.
Quite unfortunate that people will explode over anything a blue says.

"He said the OP might be burned out because he leveled tons of nine 90's!? OFFENSIVE!!!"

On topic though, I can't understand why doing dailies is any more difficult than leveling nine 90's. I've yet to hit 90, I deleted some toons, but this would be (I think) about my 4th 80. I honestly cannot do it again, I would rather quit.

So... How can you level nine 90's, yet have problems with some dailies? How many dailies would you have to do to get exalted? And how many average quests would you have to do to hit 90?
in a way people are forced to grind the dailies, if they didnt and just did dungeons, it wouldnt matter how much valor or justice they gained, they wouldnt be able to get any of the faction epic gear until they grinded the dailies to meet the reputation requirements, its almost moot to run dungeons since we get valor with the dailies and the dungeons dont drop gear better than the quartermasters sell at revered
11/12/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
So instead of endlessly getting reputation for every dungeon, maybe you only get a bonus once a day. It doesn't allow you to skip dailies altogether, but you can at least pad your rep gains a little bit.

Ok, if I'm reading this right, you're saying the idea is you can get extra rep for doing a dungeon per day, in addition to doing dailies?

That would be a fairly horrible idea.

11/12/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
And since it's brought up a lot, I completely understand the existing concerns players have about earning Valor through other sources and being locked from spending it for reputation rewards. It's something we'll continue to talk about -- be precise and feel free to suggest improvements!

Remove reputation requirements from spending valor altogether; that's really the only sensible solution.
11/12/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
For instance, we talked recently to the developers about an evolution on the idea of being able to champion a faction via a tabard. What we don't want to repeat is the design that let players max out every faction reputation just by wearing a tabard while doing other content. So instead of endlessly getting reputation for every dungeon, maybe you only get a bonus once a day. It doesn't allow you to skip dailies altogether, but you can at least pad your rep gains a little bit.


Now that you have mentioned it will this be added "soon" preferable with 5.1?

11/12/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
It's worth throwing out there that it really doesn't take many daily quests to hit Honored with Golden Lotus, and you can easily hit Honored with The Klaxxi before you even unlock their daily quests.


My only real annoyance is with Golden Lotus. Why does have to get revered with them first before August Celestials and Shado Pan? I think needing only honored would be much more reasonable.
It's simple... don't do dailies. I decided I didn't need Anglers rep, so I didn't do them til I had finished Golden Lotus and Tillers. I took a break from August Celestials until I finished the Klaxxi, because there was nothing I needed from them at that point in time. It's a choice. I wish people who complain so endlessly would realize this.

Now I am exalted with almost every faction, haven't burnt myself out and now I only do 7 dailies a day. When I decide I want to start doing more for gold, I'll do them... and it's my choice(!) to do so.


Your answer has some of the same obliviousness that Blizzard sometimes pretends to have. Nobody is complaining about the Angler dailies. Very few people are complaining about Cloud Serpents (maybe about individual quests, but not about having to do dailies for their rep). Those reputations in the end just offer vanity items. You don't really hear many complaints about Tillers - people either get the reason why to farm, or just skip it.

When people complain about being 'forced' to do dailies they're talking about the Golden Lotus/Shado-Pan/August Celestials combination, and the Klaxxi. Those are the ones that have Valor gear, they're the ones that have the crafting recipes. The first three are the ones tied together so it feels almost like one giant rep grind instead of three separate ones. Nobody's complaining about other factions. And great - you took a break from the August Celestials after you got everything you needed from them. You're ignoring how long it takes to get to a point where you can get anything you want from them, since you have to get Golden Lotus to Revered before you can even start August Celestial rep.
11/12/2012 07:02 PMPosted by Naishee
Remove reputation requirements from spending valor altogether; that's really the only sensible solution.


I don't see it as sensible at all. It's raid level gear. It SHOULD take time and effort to get, as getting gear from raids takes time and effort.

Unless of course you'd be ok with lowering the quality of the gear to better match the effort you put in to getting it.
11/12/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
But character progression isn't blocked entirely "behind endless dailies." You can get into Raid Finder without any reputation rewards. Sure, it's clearly more effective to be earning some steady reputation with the core factions (which is the point) while running other content, but that's less relevant when an argument is made in absolute statements, such as "forced," "mandatory," and "locked away."


Actually you can't, well not at least Heart of Fear. To achieve the item level for that instance you need to have been very lucky in MV and scored a few upgrades, purchased conquest pvp gear or purchased valour items.

Makes one wonder where all this feedback mentioned in Zarhyms' first post came from, the forums or the account cancellation surveys.
I have held my tongue for a long time with all of the recent complaining that's been going around because for the most part I just assume that its people never being happy with what they've got, and are of the opinion that monthly fee = constant entertainment. I'm not a hardcore player, never pretended to be, never want to be. I raid 3 nights a week, very laid back environment with a very varied group of people. in my raid

Some people will spend 10 hours online a day doing absolutely everything they can to be the best they can. Others have less time and only get on enough outside of raid to get their tokens. And guess what... We all get along just fine! The raids are tuned to be done in heroic blues if you have half a brain and put a little research into your class. If you don't know how to play, dont want to learn how to play, or dont want to put the work into your class that it takes to perform on the most basic level, then you are the exact person they blizz made raidfinder for. Still dont like raidfinder? dont like 25mans? computer cant handle 25mans? its ok, bebecause in a few months the Raidnerfs will start and you can faceroll raids all you want! cancel your sub and come back when you have "something to do" again.

I have nothing against anything in this game one way or another. Every piece has its place, from casual farmville, to daily rep grinds for items that REALLY DO NOT MATTER, to hardcore Galleon camping and raiding 6 days a week. But the fact that everyone is acting like they are being forced into doing something that they dont enjoy for 60 mins a day in order to be able the push cutting edge progression is ludicrous.

There are at least 3 people, that i can think of off the top of my head, that havnt done a single rep daily and have zero rep gear in my raid. And we are doing just fine on progression, gear isnt even whats holding us back, not by a long shot. Sure id like to be doing a little be better, but HoF has only been out 2 weeks, and not all of this content patch is even out yet! Think about that for a moment... You are complaining about not being able to do content without farming gear from Rep, and at the same time not all of the content is even out, you have plenty of time to get the same level gear from MSV, and if you cant clear MSV(which is tuned to be done in blues), then you just need to wait until the raid wide nerf comes out because this kind of raiding just isnt for you AND YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO EVERYTHING YOU WANT. The sad part is, you will get everything you want eventually, the nerf will allow this content to be completed in greens if you wanted, and theres nothing wrong with that. Because its all just another way to play the game.

Please, get over the fact that you cant get what you want with little to no effort. If you really wanted it, you would work for it. Period.

./endrant
For the record:

The only time anyone should have felt pressured to spam chain dailies was in the first few weeks before raiding started. Once LFR opened up, all of that basically became irrelevant save for getting enchants.

All of the Golden Lotus \ Shado-Pan \ August Celestials \ Klaxxi loots are virtually useless. Anyone who is still coming up in reputations should be able to get better gear from LFR \ normals.

It was a lot more daunting early on in the expansion than it is now.
I see all these threads about being forced to do dailies and I think it's kind of funny. This has been said, but no one is forcing you to do dailies. I think I did a set of Golden Lotus dailies one time this whole expac. My gear level is 467 and I am 4/6 in normal MV which I think is pretty good considering it hasn't been that long since MoP launched. So no, you do not need to do dailies to get VP so you can raid and progress. I've gotten all of my gear from heroics and I'm progressing just fine.
I just can't get over that the OP has 9 level 90s. I only have two, and the second one farmed half of the experience.

And all item level to get into heroics and then LFR can be obtained from the former level of content, completely without dailies.

The commitment to level 9 toons to 90, but no commitment to gear them up - I don't get it.

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