Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

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I think having that many 90s is a bit much this early into the xpac. I have 2, and 2 toons at 86 that i am slowly going back and forth with.

But lvl 90 DOES feel too grindy. Dailies for factions feels overwhelming at times, to the point I stopped doing them till 5.1 gives bonus rep gain. Seems rep gains for dailies used to be about 250 before guild perks, now most of them seem like half that. Making the grind feel harsh.

Then all the valor gear that are nice upgrades you have to get revered with separate factions to get items, I much preferred the Valor Quartermaster in Org, so rep wasn't tied into our valor. I have been EXTREMELY unlucky with raid drops on my main. Absolutely 0 tank drops for out guild so far. Lucky our other tank is a druid, and leather agi gear has at least got one of us some gear. I only have a few LFR (no sha stuff other than quest boots) And then Valor... and being tied into rep makes me a sad panda (yes I know im not a panda).

Scenarios, while nice and short for the most part, have no good incentive to run them. The "bosses" don't have loot, and the cache is so random that even if you do manage to get gear instead of gold, it is possibly useless gear for you, and that is discouraging to me at least. So I don't bother with them myself. Lesson? No matter how fun you make it, after the first time its kinda pointless to run again since there is no real reward. And I would wager that most people would rather do something that has a reward no matter how fun you make one of these scenarios.
Having said all of that, I'm just not personally sure we can design a game that's going to feel fresh and rife with content every time you login, if the expectation is that the average World of Warcraft player will have nine level-90 characters less than two months after the expansion's release. I really don't mean this as a judgment of how you choose to spend your time, either. But when considering everything you said in your post -- you mention needing time for family and enjoying casual content -- your noted (or implied) play time really sticks out.

Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


Paragraph 1....is indeed a challenge. How to keep progression of alts moving along, without making it a grind. It really comes down to literally, Time. How do you keep the people who play 5-10 hours a week from being discouraged of never making any progress, but slow the people who play 20-40 hours a week down enough that they don't chew through all your content and get bored. I don't envy the fine line you need to walk there, but taking 3-4 months PER toon to level up and gear up for the content available seems a little on the excessive side.

Paragraph 2.... because it's the only way to continue to keep access to the new content as it comes out. The first tier for raiding was not horrible. You can actually do most of it in blue gear. The ilvl req was relatively easy to get by putting in some time in dungeons, or gathering mats, etc. The problem comes as you now unlock greater content. I've been running LFR for 3 weeks, and have 1 piece of gear from it. The only reason I happen to have 2, is because this toon is human, and gets the guild bonus to push barely into honored for Shado Pan.
Seeing this, can you honestly look at that and *not* see how I think I need to do dailies to get gear progression and get into new content? (ilvl 470 seems a *long* way away...) Valor has, for the past many several patches and expansions, been the filler for bad RNG. That filler is now locked behind a time sync everyone says is "not required!". Sure....if you want to depend on the frustration of RNG for progression, and gearing alternate toons or spec, that's indeed the case. But really? Why do you make people suffer that?
11/12/2012 07:33 PMPosted by Vaedrin
And once you buy those for a whopping 1250 a pop, what's next without dailies?


Running a raid? A heroic? LFR? Craft or trade for a crafted item? Why does everyone ignore the non daily methods of gearing up. You don't have to do one daily in order to queue for Heroics or LFR.

Besides if you aren't raiding, aren't running heroics, aren't running scenarios and aren't doing dailies then you wouldn't have the valor to spend on items you can't buy in the first place.
I don't mind the dailies at all (I'm personally so sick of dungeons after Cataclysm, I'll take just about anything at this point), but I've always felt that having BiS gear is the end of the journey, not the starting point.

It seems to me that the disagreement if dailies set an appropriate pace for acquiring gear versus feeling like they're actually gating your progression boils down to the old "it's the journey" vs. "it's the destination argument."

Those who are more experience-oriented tend to enjoy the task of proving your character to a faction. The rewards are nice, but they're not necassarily the point. The joy is derived from the process. Those who are more goal-oriented tend to see everything between where they stand now and their goal (exalted and geared) as an obstacle as they focus more on the end results. The joy is derived from the results.

I really enjoy reading these debates because neither side is wrong; it's just two different ways of viewing the same process. I'm curious to see how this shakes out a couple months down the road when we have another tier of gear that is BiS and most cutting edge characters are exalted with everyone and completely unconcerned about rep.
I honestly think that Blizzard is too afraid to admit that they're wrong, and will support CRZ, dailies, and all the other bad ideas from MOP to their graves.

I only ask that you not be so stubborn in admitting mistakes. When people say that "the only thing that can kill WoW is Blizzard", that's what they mean. Just ask SoE and how their "New Game Enhancements" worked on SWG.


Here's a few simple ones:
1) Remove the requirement that you be Revered with the Golden Lotus before staring Shado-Pan/August Celestial dailies. Or maybe just change it to Honored with the Golden Lotus
2) Put Enchanting recipes behind one faction, not two. Same for any other profession that has patterns spread across different factions. That will make it easier for people to pick specific factions to focus on.
3) And while not directly related to reputation rewards, do some things to make the actual dailies less tedious. Make drop rates better. Add more fatty goats. Make it so you can skip individual Golden Lotus dailies and still proceed to the next hub.
4) Along with #3 - and this is more complicated - I'd like to see some change to how it determines which quests you get. If ...for example....Whitepetal Lake is a quest hub today, make it less likely that it will be a quest hub tomorrow. And if it does come out to Whitepetal Lake a 2nd day in a row, then make it even more less likely the third day.


You realize the fatty goats quest doesn't give ANY rep, right?


No, I don't have every quest and their rep reward memorized. Sorry. That was simply an example of ways they can make dailies less tedious. It's not the only quest that is frustrating due to small number of mobs, it's just the one whose name I remembered. it was an example of a quest that could be fixed, not the only one that could be fixed.
I think we (even Zarhym) all agree that there is some kind of a problem wrt dailies/reps in MoP. Otherwise there wouldn't be countless threads about them.

I gave it some thoughts and came out with this:

1. Rewards given at Revered are very attractive (incentive to raise reputation)
2. Reputations are only awarded through daily quests for the most part. There are normal quests that award Klaxxi and Shado-Pan reps but won't get you to Revered, so dailies are absolutely required if a player wanted to get to Revered with a faction.
3. Daily quests are not fun. This is because:
3a. There are too many other people/faction fighting over the same mob/item. (too much contest)
3b. Dailies are easy by default, but challenge is what usually leads to fun content. (mindless grind)
3c. After you've done every set of dailies, they get repetitive with no variation of sorts. (repetitive)

What would have been better is if there were a grand chain of normal quests for each faction to earn reputation. This quest chain would be long enough that an average player would take a couple of weeks to reach the end, and perhaps involving heroic dungeons, scenarios, etc. This way, 1) people will progress at different pace, so there wouldn't be too much contest for the same mob/item, and 2) people will only complete the quests once so they can be challenging and fresh.

Now that I have come to think of it, daily quests appears as a means to save development cost. If Blizzard was to implement something like above, it would have taken them quite a bit more to develop the content in terms of resources.

However it's all in the past. Dailies are here to stay and there probably won't be big changes around them.

So in a practical point of view, I would propose something like this:
1. Add reputation to certain dungeons that relate to the faction. Shado-Pan monastery will reward Shado-Pan reps, Gate of the Setting Sun will reward Klaxxi reps, etc.
2. Add reputation to related scenarios as well.
3. Add a purchasable, BoA item (via lesser charm perhaps?) at Exalted to each faction vendor to reward a great amount of reputation upon use to help lessen the stress of raising reputation for alts.
4. Move most, if not all crafting patterns from faction vendors to trainers.

I'm mostly done with daily grinds myself (on main at least) so I could care less, but it's been bad enough that some guild members struggled to keep up with all the dailies (that are somewhat required since we raid on a regular basis).
11/12/2012 04:30 PMPosted by Zarhym
Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


Scenarios do absolutely nothing for end-game progression. Hence I don't know anyone who has done them more than once per instance. Dungeons are fine, but those get tired quickly. Raiding (and I don't count LFR in this), is currently not an option for people who can't devote 5-6 hours per day to the game (including 3-4 hours raiding, an hour of prep, and 1-2 hours per day on dailys).

Leveling was a perfectly enjoyable, fun option for casuals like myself before CRZ's were implimented. Now they are yet another exercise in frustration. Keep on tryin tho blizz!
Finally ready to call it quits, realized today after almost 8 years of playing that I just didn't enjoy the game anymore.

MoP ruined this game for people like me, I have a family, and I cannot and WILL not be forced into doing dailies across all my toons or hell even ONE toon in order to progressively gear my characters.

The new loot system for LFR, Sha, etc is completely unbearable, constantly seeing 28g pop up across all my toons gives me ZERO incentive to continue grinding out the casual content I am used to.

And its not like I havent given it time, I leveled nine classes to 90, and going through the same content over and over wasn't so bad, its the point where you get to 90 and you are pigeon holed into grinding dailies over and over or PVP'ing (which I do NOT enjoy). So I canceled today, which is saying alot because I play alot and used to enjoy this game massively.

Some will flame me, blizz will probably close the post, but truth be told, if they don't address these things soon there will be many following suit.

There is definitely legitimacy to your post, and we've been reading a lot of the feedback players have been sharing lately as we evaluate our endgame progression systems. Even as World of Warcraft evolves over each expansion, and as happy as we are with the experience we crafted for Mists of Pandaria, we always know we can do better.

Having said all of that, I'm just not personally sure we can design a game that's going to feel fresh and rife with content every time you login, if the expectation is that the average World of Warcraft player will have nine level-90 characters less than two months after the expansion's release. I really don't mean this as a judgment of how you choose to spend your time, either. But when considering everything you said in your post -- you mention needing time for family and enjoying casual content -- your noted (or implied) play time really sticks out.

Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


Continued this thread when it cut off at 26 pages(before extension) here:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7005437238?page=1

In case anyone wanted more feedback on the topic.
I'll summarize my points here an hope everyone else that joined the other thread does the same.


It looks good as is on paper but application is another matter.

Do I want to spend my time doing dailies for Mounts, Tabards, Recipies and Gear Echantments? Yes. Will I be more likely to do them anyway for Valor and a second chance at raid drops even if I'm not interested in any of the vanity items? Yes!

Do I feel jipped everytime both my normal roll and coin roll drop 28 gold(which may or may not even cover repairs depending on group)? Yes... Is it worse because I know that despite running Dungeons, Dailies, and LFR it will be weeks before I can even think about getting Valor items to augment disappointingly low drop rates(scenarios don't drop good enough gear to worry about)? God Yes! And it's like a slap in the face that you can only hold 3000 VP knowing you'll be maxed before you can even spend it.



Personally I have no opinion on the OP's choice to quit, but the reasons he stated 'are' valid and deserve discussion. The only way we'll help the content of the game get better is by pointing out bad content and hoping it will be fixed. That and I don't feel quite disgruntled enough to post in the BUG forum that these coins might as well be vendor trash.


Honestly this whole issue would resolve itself if the VP gear was pulled out of Rep faction specific vendors and put back into the cities, maybe into the new much smaller faction cities/hubs. They already drastically reduced the amount of Valor you can receive from raids and dungeons so with dailies dropping valor they have effectively succeeded in getting people out of cities. No one camps a vendor unless they are one or two dungeon or raid runs away from buying something, so if your too broke to do that you'll be doing 'something'.

edit: I forgot about the Niuzao Temple vendor, but the rep restriction still applies.


Actually I am a healer, I was #1 and #2 in heals..........sorry.


Then, as I said, you raid with bad players? Why are you apologizing to me? lol


Isn't it strange then that those who downed the raids first, had to do so in gear they didn't get from valor vendors? Funny isn't it, people playing well in the gear they're designed to go into raid with...

Just because YOU can't play well in a raid wearing non valor gear (which is raid level) doesn't mean no one else can.
Dailies have sped up the burn out of most of our guild. This coupled with frustrating PVP is killing people that I know's will to log in and continue playing. It's like you took a perfectly good system and have slowly been making it worse over the expansions.

Yeah we could blow through from friendly to exalted in a weekend but it was great because most of us only really log in on sundays for any extended period of time. Dailies mean we have to log in daily to keep up with the grind. It might be more tolerable if you could save up a couple days worth of these tedious chores and just blow through several days worth in an afternoon. It's not really compelling "content" though.

Maybe try making some fun things to do instead? PVP used to be fun until you murdered it by adding 10,000 CC mechanics and then defend it with "we feel..." posts.
I can find an hour a day to lick the dirt off a homeless person's foot...

... doesn't mean I have fun doing it.


That alternative to rep through dailies is rep through running instances or farming mobs in the open world. If you find dailies boring then you won't find any rep gains entertaining. Why should valor gear just be handed out? It isn't needed.

Justice Gear never should have had rep requirements but that is fixed. They just need to increase the JP gain. Also you won't want to use Valor on gear in 5.1 because it will be more valuable to upgrade the gear then by a gear piece.

This is all down to I want X without having to do stuff in the game.
Isn't it strange then that those who downed the raids first, had to do so in gear they didn't get from valor vendors? Funny isn't it, people playing well in the gear they're designed to go into raid with...

Just because YOU can't play well in a raid wearing non valor gear (which is raid level) doesn't mean no one else can.


No they didn't have valor gear, they had heroic raid gear! Even better!
11/12/2012 07:37 PMPosted by Kelidra
Scenarios do absolutely nothing for end-game progression.


463 item level gear and Valor points helps towards end game progression just as Heroics do. If that is nothing then that is the problem. Things are arbitrarily being removed from discussion just because you don't like them.
well big Z, how about some use of our tradeskills to gain reputations?

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