Why are dungeons so easy now?

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11/06/2012 02:42 PMPosted by Coldêthyl
2 Million sub losses is the reason, they were fine in a guild group, LFG sucked.

Oh so 2 million subs was lost specifically because of heroic difficulty? Where are these stats from that all these 2 million subs was lost specifically because of heroic difficulty and not because of things like lack of content?
Well, I certainly agree with what Bash is saying in terms of the talent pool in the LFR being simply unsuitable for difficult heroics, but I don't agree with Blizzard's design decision to bring the difficulty down to the player base, instead of taking the opposite approach and building in mechanisms to educate and teach the player base. Make the players better instead of making the content easier.

I do understand that it's not that simple, you have millions of people around the world, talent levels vary wildly, but Blizzard is a brilliant company responsible for some of the all-time greatest games, surely they could come up with clever ways to do this!

Just as an example here, why not have a Mage Class quest around level 15 or 20 (ready to do dungeons) where you get put into a little arena with room to move around, blink, etc, and there are 5 mobs with a buff that gives them bonus damage as long as all 5 are active. Sheep one, and voila, the mage gets the bonus damage and the mobs lose their buff.

I'm simplifying for the sake of keeping this relatively brief, but something like that, for each class, where you are somewhat taught what your abilities are for (and toss in a nice reward too!). Hell, even have a bit of written description as part of the loading screen explaining class mechanics. Of course the final implementation would've been on Blizzard to figure out, and I don't think, sadly, that it will ever happen - it's gone too far now to realistically have a chance of correction - but (my opinion of course) educating the player base would've been a better answer than just taking the nerf bat to the dungeons.

Anyway, I said this earlier in the thread, but to reiterate, I do think this is the best expac since TBC. Good on Blizz. These aren't complaints so much as loving criticism of what amounts to one of the best games I've ever played!
Don't you have challenge modes now if you want to do something harder?
The new dungeons are a little easy for my taste, but I'd rather they err on he side of too easy than too hard. I find I'm much more relaxed in the new dungeons -- I'm not constantly fretting over Recount to make sure we have enough DPS or compulsively inspecting tanks to see how many times we're likely to wipe.

And let's be honest: no one wanted another heroic Deadmines.
The problem with Heroic Dungeons is the fact they are NOT heroic : They are Normal Mode Dungeon with the word Heroic Slapped onto them.

Challenge modes are the REAL heroic dungeons, Go into there using the same tactics in LFG and you will wipe in 20 seconds, flat. I only did 1 Challenge mode and that was Jade Temple and well guys, Its pretty freaking hard, Dare I say it feels....heroic!

Trash can kill you easily, Bosses have new mechanics, and there is a time limit, its REALLY challenging.

However back to the topic at hand, the problem with the current heroics is that blizzard called them heroics. They should have just came out and said Heroics No longer exist, you can LFG normal mode ramped up dungeons (For Jade Temple, Shado-Pan, Mogu-shan, and Stormsnout), and if you wish to do the heroics, you go to challenge modes.

The problem isn't the dungeons are too easy, its the fact they're called HEROICS that has the community in an uproar. Heroics are supposed to be tough and challenging, require CC, Careful planning on pulling trash and well...you wont get that in LFD so blizzard had to compensate with rather than giving DPS and Healers and Tanks super buffs in LFD, they just beat the content with the nerf bat until it was as easy as dragon soul was "WHOOPS DID I SAY THAT OUT LOUD!?"
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I don't mind the dungeons being easy. I mean I don't do them often at all but last night joined a dungeon as a healer with my dps friend hoping to get a quick run but sadly the other two dps some how managed to only pull 20-24k each and even worse some how on aoe pulls.

Unfortunately that ease of the dungeons promotes this type of "casual bad" play style. :<


before you gripe there in heroics to get gear not all classes are op . on average my dk does 20k at level 87..... but there are many factors in consideration as well. such as some classes dont have moving spells cast or melle has to move away from bosses due to tank not adjusting the boss . Dont judge by your personal standards.
11/06/2012 03:01 PMPosted by Maigraith
And let's be honest: no one wanted another heroic Deadmines


Pretty much all the heroics were overly hard for a random group, because they required coordination. If you had coordination within the group they were easy and fun.

Also worth noting as a shadow priest a the start of Cata I'd often see,

"<party chat> We have a Priest they have no CC or interrupts".
"You have been removed from group".

I think the biggest problem was with players not being patient enough really.

I absolutely love the new ZG and ZA dungeons because they were mechanically hard. If you had a group that knew the mechanics the dungeons were not so bad. This for me made them mostly fun because they were not so easy you'd fall asleep.

I like the easy heroics for gear progressions purpose though, with the addition of challenge modes for those who want the difficulty.
11/06/2012 03:12 PMPosted by Goldenlotus
Because the community has become over run with little babies that throw temper tantrums if a mob touches them, god for bid someone die OR EVEN A WIPE OMG /ragequit.


While this doesn't happen every run, I will say that I see it far too often.
The ability to get in quickly and easily by being automatically matched with other players has a ton of great benefits, including just being able to get in and do dungeons without needing to spend time coordinating a group or spamming chat channels. Plus it has the whole Set It and Forget It benefit of being able to go do stuff while you're in queue. But the ease of entry has a downside in that tolerance goes down, and the fact of a random group is a lack of consistency from run to run. Random players being matched together injects a ton of inconsistency, but if it goes bad you can just jump back into queue and are probably not much worse for the wear.

Cataclysm dungeons tended to require things like CC, and in general a fairly in-sync and coordinated group to be consistently successful (at least until enough people outgeared them). The problem comes when matching random players together that there is no consistency. While you may go in with a group and all learn something, that a specific mob needs to be CC'd, or a certain boss behavior to avoid a wipe, those lessons are more than likely out the window with the next group you're matched with. While you may have some knowledge, maybe no one else does, and most people don't want to spend every run waiting for everyone else to learn all those same lessons. That can just be a frustrating experience. So instead of trying to force a group of strangers to be so heavily coordinated (maybe even having to jump into voice chat) just to complete the first steps of progression, we reduce the complexity to a point where the random groups that are being put together can most of the time be successful without needing to be hyper-organized or educated on each pull. Instead, that organization is far more important for the organized content where random people aren't matched together: normal and Heroic raids.

Of course there are players that want every piece of content to be very challenging, even going so far as wanting hard questing and daily quests, but the breadth of types of people playing World of Warcraft mean that we need to have a wide variety of content, and a wide variety of difficulty, to try to appeal to a variety of tastes. Obviously it's not an exact science, as you'll see from expansion to expansion, or even patch to patch, we may change difficulty to suit what we believe will achieve the best results for the people attempting that content.


Thing is though - there is a sweet spot between Cata Heroics and what we have now.

One instance - ShadowPan Monastery is actually nearly perfect, at least Trash wise.

Wrath Heroics at launch were pretty good, but I think the best balance I've seen was the ICC 5s.

Heroics should be there to teach people the basics of raiding. As it stands, aside from a very few select parts I can roflstomp my way through on my tank in questing greens.
All I know is I never want to see anything like the Troll Dungeons again.
I'm convinced that anybody saying that cataclysm heroics were difficult did not play in burning crusade... LOL

Someone said here that challenges are harder than BC heroics. Now I am intrigued and HAVE to try one. Even cata heroics when you were undergeared to death for them were at hardest 30% of the amount of challenge of a BC heroic. I think a lot of that comes from less "oh crap" buttons and also the actual need to know how to use ALL your characters abilities including the cc's properly...not just the lol-face roll abilities in some fangled "rotation". Anybody that complains about cata being hard dare never have stepped in a REAL BC heroic during those times LMFAO!
Even NON-LFR raiding mechanics these days are not as hard as BC heroics were...been longing for an actual challenge.
11/06/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Mordraxas
All I know is I never want to see anything like the Troll Dungeons again.

I don't get this. Jin'do, Jan'alai, and maybe Venoxis were really the only things remotely difficult about them. Sure, you weren't going to get a bear in every LFD ZA, but's that's why you build your own group. Once people got the hang of them, they really weren't that tough. Akil'zon, Zanzil, Kilnara, Mandokir? Nothing difficult. Heck, even Daakara was pretty simple.

I loved the 4.0/4.1 difficulty because it forced me to man up, learn my class, and be intelligent about my gameplay. That said, I possess a deep hatred for Grim Batol and never want to set foot in that place again. I wouldn't mind a little more difficulty in the current level of heroics (I think the ones with Normal versions should have gotten new mechanics at least), but I also like the ease of gearing in this expansion. Working on that upgrade doesn't require a 2 hour run and a >100g repair bill.

I see both sides, and I really wish there was a way to meet in the middle. Complex, challenging bosses that are not punishing is difficult to tune, I would think.
Why are dungeons so easy now?


Because not standing in the giant puddle of neon coloured death, or moving to avoid the charge that comes 5 seconds after "Boss looks at SuckyMcBad" flashes across the screen is insanely difficult for the vast majority of WoW's playerbase.
I don't get this. Jin'do, Jan'alai, and maybe Venoxis were really the only things remotely difficult about them.


Que?

Any tank worth their armour could solo Venoxis, and most of us wound up needing to because "Don't stand in green" is, as stated above, very difficult for people.

Edit: Not disagreeing with the point of your post, just saying I found it odd to see Venoxis on your "This guy sucks" list.
There is no reason heroics(and LFR) have to be so excruciatingly easy. They literally feel like theyre tuned for 85s. Challenge modes are no excuse. Doing a dungeon fast doesn't mean anything.
Challenges modes look interesting but you have to get through all the easy mind-numbing content to get to level 90 to do them. I have a feeling Blizzard created challenge modes as an excuse to make every other aspect of the game easy-mode. Easy = boring.

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