Please make Challenge Modes harder

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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11/06/2012 10:19 PMPosted by Sliphe
Is there any other way to measure how well a group does other than speed? It's always going to come down to speed because time is the easiest to measure.

There's a lot of leeway in how to design the dungeon in the first place. Current Challenge Modes pretty much assume you'll be face-tanking and aoe-ing everything you don't skip. The bosses almost seem like a formality compared to the trash. Contrast with heroic 5-mans at BC launch. For a group in the appropriate gear, you basically had to CC and focus fire. Many of the bosses were also rather difficult. Instead of a 12-minute run, you might be looking at 30 minutes or more.

A potential downside is that this could unfortunately be even more comp-dependent.
Speed runs have been a part of gaming culture for a very long time, I'm not too sure how well it really fits with a hot key based mmo though.

I'd be all for a different kind of challenge mode though that doesn't involve speed, something that tests survivability against waves of mobs ("horde mode") or a boss that hits harder and harder until you die might be different and appeal to others who don't like the gimmick zergy feel of speed runs.


I guess proving grounds would be the waves style gameplay or Brawlers Guild somewhat.
Not sure how speed isn't part of the challenge.
That's like saying bosses shouldn't have berserk timers because killing them faster isn't part of the challenge.


This is the guy holding most of the records on our realm :)

Anyways, I do like challenge modes as they are. I don't like that I have to buy invisibility potions to be competitive.
Same. I've got a few silvers. The difference between silver and gold is more dps. meh.

You don't even need to cc once you know what you are doing, which is really disappointing.

I'll get the mount tho. It's spiffy enough for the effort to recruit people.
11/06/2012 10:19 PMPosted by Sliphe
Is there any other way to measure how well a group does other than speed? It's always going to come down to speed because time is the easiest to measure.


I don't think it's the time by itself. It's that that's the only real challenge.

7 pull in H halls? Yeah, the melee hit so wimpily they may as well not be there so it's really just a few casters, only only two of them are dangerous.

CM's are 5-man normal raids. I was expecting hardmode 5-mans I guess.
What I said about "less emphasis on speed" was taken out of context.

Time-attack type challenges have been a part of gaming for a long time, but the content of the Challenge Modes themselves was not really all that difficult.

As someone mentioned earlier, the only time I found our group wiping was when we were sloppy during chain trash pulls. The bosses themselves are not difficult, as they have the exact same mechanics as Heroic modes with the exception of the mechanics hitting harder. Even then the mechanics are not 1-shot deaths so they are easy to recover from if failed as long as your healer is not running out of mana.

All I'm saying is that I personally would prefer a more intense challenge from Challenge Modes rather than "pulling as much trash as you possibly can without wiping", which is pretty much what getting Gold is all about (gimmicks or not).
People keep talking about difference between speed and difficulty, the problem is that if they make it off difficulty then once you clear it theres really no way to push for continued competitive play. At that point it just becomes another dungeon... Also TBC heroics while yes they were "harder" they were still easy enough to ignore cc and speed run with a well put together group.
Uhh...too many people talking about CM being easy and all but i see no Gold Challenger achieve...
11/07/2012 07:02 AMPosted by Cynbell
Uhh...too many people talking about CM being easy and all but i see no Gold Challenger achieve...

Too many people making posts without reading the thread, or the first post AT LEAST.
Challenge Modes have 2 factors: Difficulty and Speed.

OP wants more focus on difficulty, less focus on speed.

At the moment, gold is relying on things like invisibility pots to help push the timer, which is completely ridiculous in the context of a dungeon clear.

The difficulty of getting gold should be focused on the content itself: Hard pulls. Not who can run the fastest and skip the most mobs.

Last time I did arena, all the potions/flasks and other consumable CD's weren't allowed. I would assume Challenge Modes are essentially PvE Arenas... Why wouldn't these things be banned?

Arena is entirely based on player skill *coughcough*. Let's do the same thing with challenge modes.
I don't think more emphasis on difficulty would actually make them more difficult though. They would either be too easy or they would be entirely composition dependent. If you opt for more 'difficulty' that just sounds more CC, more sitting around waiting for mana, and more sitting around waiting for CDs. The thing with the current model is their is enough cushion room in the time requirement to make every composition possible to actually achieve gold.

If you remove time requirements I just don't see how they could ever be hard without being near impossible without a perfect composition. How much can you really do with just 5 people with drastically different abilities depending on class? Not a whole lot.

I think it's silly for some of you to disregard challenge modes as having little to do with player skill. There is plenty to do with player skill and it's entirely ignorant to claim otherwise.

At the moment, gold is relying on things like invisibility pots to help push the timer, which is completely ridiculous in the context of a dungeon clear.


You use invisibility potions on 6/9 challenge modes. There are plenty of them also that I can think off the top of my head in which using one is probably a net loss considering it puts your DPS potions on a CD.

The difficulty of getting gold should be focused on the content itself: Hard pulls. Not who can run the fastest and skip the most mobs.


What is your basis of hard pulls?I think you're missing the entire point of most of the thread TBH. Most of challenge mode difficulty is HARD pulls, so I don't see how that requirement is missing for you.

The only way you make pulls more difficult (and this is completely subjective) is by making it impossible to do without layers of CC or kiting. I don't really know if that makes it actually more difficult though because then it comes down to who kites best and who can bring the most CC. Is that difficulty, or a matter of class composition?

Class composition is always going to come into play whether you have bigger (to some that means harder) pulls, or if you're taking a speed attack approach. To me having to quickly dispatch a pack, react to what they are casting, time your CDs (or plan them depending) all in haste is much more likely to bring out skilled play rather than sitting there and CCing individual targets while one person kites two to three harmlessly away.

I think some of the consumable concerns are completely valid but I don't know how you can perfectly balance challenge modes without having time playing a factor. There just isn't a whole lot you can do to add layers of difficulty to 5 people without making class stacking even worse than it is.

I still think time is the best basis for making 5 mans challenging. I like to think of difficulty being in direct correlation to how many abilities you use. You use so many more abilities in challenge mode because of time requirements, mobility talents, utility and defensive CDs are all used with much more emphasis. Obviously CC abilities get removed and that does remove an element, but I think just hard CCing things every single pack to probably be the least interesting type of game play when talking about difficulty in a 5 man dungeon.

Maybe they could do more with bosses to make them more interesting. But we have to remember we are severely limited by composition. While there were times in my run to all gold that I felt held back by our composition, not once did I feel it was impossible. I really felt like if you removed time as a factor completely, you would just have comps that can complete challenge modes, and those that can't. The current model for challenge modes means people can't compete for world first times, but you can certainly complete them all.
11/06/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Xionic
instead it's focus on invisibility potions and who can skip the most trash packs

I read this and knew immediately you had zero golds. You get 1 invis pot, and typically it's pretty apparent where you'd want to use it. You obviously want to maximize the benefit of your pot. But if you think the difference between the best Gold runs and the fringe Gold runs is who skipped more trash, you're pretty naive.

11/07/2012 12:42 AMPosted by Slalin
The difference between silver and gold is more dps. meh.

No.

I agree with OP though. There is currently entirely too much emphasis on trash, while bosses are almost seen as a "rest period" in some cases.
Far too obvious who has never done golds. Pulling faster and not CC'ing MAKES THE DUNGEON HARDER. It is vastly easier to CC 3 out of 5 mobs than it is to pull 10 more on top of the first 5 and stay alive. Soft CC (stuns, kiting, interrupts, knockbacks, even tank cooldowns) require a modicum of skill. Pressing "sheep" before you pull a group does not.

Shattered Halls non-timer with 3 mages was a joke. Shattered Halls timed runs with 0 CC was challenging and fun. See the difference?
Speed is an absolutely necessary part of challenge modes.

Additionally, to say that it is a CC-less zerg fest is just completely inaccurate. I can't think of an ability I haven't used at some point going for gold (ok, I can: Disarm Trap), and I use most of them in every single CM. I'm not using them frivolously, either.

Challenge modes have been the most fun I've ever had playing this game and there's really not much I would change about them. In fact, the only two things that come to mind are meta in nature: 1) Reset all cds (including pots and cds shorter than 5 minutes) on a reset and 2) Up the valor point reward a little more to motivate people to do them instead of regular heroics.
11/07/2012 01:08 PMPosted by Marza
Shattered Halls non-timer with 3 mages was a joke. Shattered Halls timed runs with 0 CC was challenging and fun. See the difference?


Umm.. H SH with 0 CC was a win if your tank could hold aggro on them all and not die, or a lose otherwise. It was fun in the sense that DPS mindlessly AOE mowing down mobs was fun since we weren't used to it at the time, but otherwise not very interesting. H SH with 3 CC was interesting as you didn't have so many tank deaths, and you have the option of how much CC you want to use to try and make the timer.
more variety of reward would be nice, also kinda side tracking if you get the xmute unlocked is it open to all characters or just the one who completed it?
Far too obvious who has never done golds. Pulling faster and not CC'ing MAKES THE DUNGEON HARDER. It is vastly easier to CC 3 out of 5 mobs than it is to pull 10 more on top of the first 5 and stay alive. Soft CC (stuns, kiting, interrupts, knockbacks, even tank cooldowns) require a modicum of skill. Pressing "sheep" before you pull a group does not.

Shattered Halls non-timer with 3 mages was a joke. Shattered Halls timed runs with 0 CC was challenging and fun. See the difference?


The bolded part is what everyone should be thinking about. It's not easy to pull a whole bunch of !@#$ and aoe it down and live. It takes a lot of coordination of Soft CC's by the group and cool down usage. If you don't believe me go into Shado-pan and pull the first room with a tank that can't become immune to stuns and let me know how that goes until you figure it out for your comp.

If they made the CM's brutally hard and not based on time, some comps would be impossible to get gold with which is a horrible idea. As it is now every comp should be able to get all gold if played well enough. You may not set WR times with any comp, but you can earn your rewards. Nor would there be any competition if time wasn't a factor. As for the usage of invis pots, If you couldn't use them I'd be willing to bet a few of the instances would be next to impossible, such as MSP.

I do agree they could have made bosses harder, the only one that was actually somewhat difficult was Sha of Violence in SPM.

EDIT: for the above, all the rewards are character specific.
I think challenge modes are pretty fun if your going for gold and trying to best the times people have already set. It's not just a zerg fest to get the best time possible you have to know how to play your class and maximise your dps at every available opportunity. I also think people who have never even gotten gold in any challenge mode really have in a say in how difficult something is. Idk about you but I had a lot of fun getting the #1 US time for temple of the jade serpent.
Like TBC release heroics were hard, but they weren't that hard.

You could run in with optimal CC, take your time, meet the timer and breeze through the instance. I did this route.

You could also run with a non-traditional group with very little reliable or sustained CC and get through it. Rogue CC wasn't completely reliable when I played mine back in TBC and we made it through all of SH without an easy hard CC. How did we do it? We just kited everything in the halls to the front of the instance using shiv crippling. Is that creative? Yeah, but I wouldn't call it skilled game play.

I think there are legitimate concerns with bosses being a little bland and consumable requirements but some of you really need to do them before dismissing them, and not just living vicariously through other peoples experiences.

The way they are setup limits how much trash you can even skip and there are plenty of options to meeting the mob cap. You simply just can't go in and skip as much trash as possible. Most instances only let you skip 1-2 packs at max. Why? Because they still want you to experience the brunt of the instance, and trust me you do.

I am sure they will add new rewards or season of gear for challenge modes. Weapons would be an attractive option and/or even a recolor of the sets we currently have would be fine with me.
Like I said, I really did enjoy Challenge modes and I hope that Blizzard continues to implement them, but a lot of them are just flat out too easy to get Gold in. Gate of the Setting Sun is a prime example of this. IIRC my group was able to get this one on our first run even after 2 or 3 people died to a bug on the second boss' platform.

Scarlet Halls was also very easy with the exception of the trash pull in the hallway by the second boss. The only thing that wiped us here were bugs with the dog buckets and failure to interrupt.

It is the consensus that the most difficult part of Mogu'shan Palace is getting everyone over the ledge before the second boss without getting stuck or dying before your Invis potion wears off.

IMO all of them should be as intense as Shado-Pan Monastery. Starting from the very first trash pull you need to be on your toes at every moment or you will die. Sha of Violence was probably the only Challenge Mode boss that was actually difficult; they should all be like that.

If they don't want to take that route, they could make them more like Stormstout Brewery where without perfect execution, you will NOT get a Gold. Didn't use enough barrels on the first boss? No gold. Didn't keep the group together during the trash gauntlet between the first and second boss and people got hit by explosions? No gold. Accidentally stepped in the stream of beer coming from the walls and aggroed the little Alementals before the last boss' trash? No gold. Weren't able to AoE down that big trash pull right before the last boss without the mobs healing each other? No gold. Didn't block one of the beams and the boss got a tick of healing? No gold.

Pretty much every other dungeon has room for recovery i.e. time to stop and res someone who died during a boss or trash pull and still manage to get a Gold. I feel like any sort of screw-up or failure to execute properly shouldn't be eligible for the top-tier of rewards.

As far as comps go, take a look at arenas. Sure you might not be able to push high rating with the wrong comp, but in nearly every situation there is a different comp in which your class (class, not spec, you need to be versatile) would fit in perfectly.
Pretty much stupid that the trash is harder than the boss 99.99% of the time. That's not what they should be about, the bosses should actually be a challenge. Like take Sha of Violence, double or triple it, and make that every boss.

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