Why would a kitty ever use Shred?

Druid
Mangle:
- Costs 35 energy
- Deals 400% + 25 damage
- +1 combo point
- Applies Infected Wounds

Shred:
- Costs 40 energy
- Deals 400% + 25 damage
- +1 combo point
- Applies Infected Wounds
- +20% damage if target has a bleed
- Requires being behind the target

~

Shred deals 20% more damage, but can only be cast 88% (35/40) as often, and only generates 88% of the combo points. In addition to this, the positional requirement will lower DPS in some rare cases.

For the sake of not having to position myself, and to get the extra combo points for more finisher procs, I would argue you should always use Mangle. Still, they're really really close.

Why do we have two so-similar abilities? Why would a kitty ever use Shred?
I only use it when i use berserk because then it's 20 instead of 17, only losing 3 points per there and when your trying to kill stuff quick, even though it's not much quicker...
sorry posted on my pally
You said it your self. Shred deals 20% more damage (on bleeding targets but your target should always be bleeding) and cast 88% as often. So while you can use it 12% less it does 20% more damage.
As for getting to 5 combo points more often with mangle, it’s not needed. Rip and Savage Roar last a long time, squeezing in an extra F.Bite by using mangle doesn’t make up the dps loss from not using shred.
Mangle is for trash and shred for bosses.
It's not just about the extra finishers, but also the benefits of casting finishers, like:
- +20 energy from Soul of the Forest
- Free spell from Predatory Swiftness

The energy alone makes it kind of worth it I would assume.
I think shred sims out to be about a 4% dps gain over mangle. It's not a huge difference. I do recomend you spend some time behind a target dummy to figure out for yourself which works better with your gear and reaction time. Try 5 minutes using each rotation.
Hmm, for pvp where PS procs are more important and where you cannot always be behind your target, shred probably isnt even worth using unless you have your target stunned and Berserk up...

I might just leave it off the action bars and free up a keybind...
When you attack from the front Mangle tends to get parried regardless of caps. If you aren't being behind your target (more so in a pve setting) as feral you're doing it very wrong. You can even glyph it so you can shred from the front when using CD's, it's actually rather nice on the spirit kings.

The question really should be...why would I ever use mangle? Shred always wins. You should always have Rake/Rip on the Target meaning Shred will always be buffed. Mangle is there in the rare case you cannot get behind a target.

Generally as a melee Dps (regardless of class/spec) you *want* to be behind your target.
A kitty will use Shred when they're a good player and would like distance themselves from the bad ones. That 4% DPS increase matters to good players.
10/31/2012 05:08 AMPosted by Saeilfa
A kitty will use Shred when they're a good player and would like distance themselves from the bad ones. That 4% DPS increase matters to good players.


Yeah and 4% is a HUGE amount of DPS when your talking 40 - 60k output standing with no cd's .
Only use shred when you have berserk...
Hmm, for pvp where PS procs are more important and where you cannot always be behind your target, shred probably isnt even worth using unless you have your target stunned and Berserk up...

I might just leave it off the action bars and free up a keybind...


hmm.. iuno dude. i disagree with taking it off your action bars. you get a full bash with a topped off energy bar and bleeds up; i still believe it's the way to go.

i do agree that it's become less important in pvp though :[.
because it's higher burst, and can't be parried.
Cause the sound mangle makes annoys the piss out of me
Sometimes I find the faster combo gen of mangle better when I need quick combo points but I try to shred whenever I can. Every little bit helps.

Edit: I'm speaking from a pvp standpoint.
Hmm, for pvp where PS procs are more important and where you cannot always be behind your target, shred probably isnt even worth using unless you have your target stunned and Berserk up...

I might just leave it off the action bars and free up a keybind...


I will let the PvE discussion work itself out. But as far as PvP goes...

This is a baaad road to go down.

10/31/2012 03:46 PMPosted by Urtho
Sometimes I find the faster combo gen of mangle better when I need quick combo points but I try to shred whenever I can. Every little bit helps.


This is more appropriate in a pvp setting. Your aim is to be behind your target and shredding as much as possible. If you just cant get behind the guy, and you need the combo points and/or are going to energy cap, mangle. You realy want to try to be behind your opponent as much as possible. This avoids otherwise avoidable melee hits to the face. And you should always try to be behind your target when you bash/maim, so you make sure you land it.

I think using mangle in place of shred always, would promote lazy gameplay. You wouldnt try as hard to be behind your opponent, would take otherwise avoidable damage, and miss your bashs/maims. Not even taking into account the DPS [burst] loss
I like to use Shred more when I'm low on energy and TF is on CD. Yes, sometimes it misses-- targets have a tendency to turn around and face you-- but when you're low on energy it's OK to miss occasionally until it comes back up.

When I'm going for pure burst, it's TF + Berserk + agility trinket + mangle mangle mangle.
but when you're low on energy it's OK to miss occasionally until it comes back up.

When I'm going for pure burst, it's TF + Berserk + agility trinket + mangle mangle mangle.


o.O
I like to use Shred more when I'm low on energy and TF is on CD. Yes, sometimes it misses-- targets have a tendency to turn around and face you-- but when you're low on energy it's OK to miss occasionally until it comes back up.

When I'm going for pure burst, it's TF + Berserk + agility trinket + mangle mangle mangle.


lol'd. This whole thread is great.
My mangle button only gets used in soloing.

The bottom line is that Shred deals more DPE than Mangle does. the math is pretty simple: hypothetically, let's assume that either of them causes 10k base damage just to make it easy, but it scales to whatever amount (since the base damage is always the same). That means that Shred has a DPE of 300 (12k damage including the bleed bonus / 40 energy). Mangle has a DPE of 286 (10k damage / 35 energy). If you use Mangle from the front (you don't have this option with Shred, of course), then you have to factor in parries, which will lower Mangle's DPE even more.

More DPE is better. It's really as simple as that.

This is the same reason why high-level cats nowadays will throw in Thrash in high-energy situations and Clearcasting procs instead of Shred, as long as they're not clipping another Thrash. Thrash simply causes more damage per energy than Shred, even on a single target, even if it takes longer for that damage to happen.

It's also why it's better to Swipe if you have more than one target to hit and the situation warrants it (no CC, don't have to burst one target down, etc.). When you get to more than one target, Swipe simply causes more total damage per energy used than Shred.

It's all math, which is good, because then we can come up with some pretty definitive answers.

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