Why would a kitty ever use Shred?

Druid
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11/05/2012 12:52 PMPosted by Rayen
Keeping up SR should be second nature by this point. If you are struggling use the glyph or if you want an easier way to step up, use the glyph. Keeping up SR 100% is in no way difficult.
Right. Yep. Didn't say it was.
I'm amused by the players pretending to be pro by arguing that a less than 4% DPS increase on an ability makes it mandatory, when there are so many downsides to using it (less combo points, less PS procs) especially in PvP. The only argument that makes sense is that shred is higher burst, so obviously if you have the energy to spare (like during berserk) you are far better off using shred than mangle. But comments like "why would I ever use mangle instead of shred" and "you shred from behind, you get parried using mangle from the front" are pure idiocy.
Sometimes I find the faster combo gen of mangle better when I need quick combo points but I try to shred whenever I can. Every little bit helps.

Edit: I'm speaking from a pvp standpoint.


=O You aren't me!
11/06/2012 09:55 PMPosted by Weepea
I'm amused by the players pretending to be pro by arguing that a less than 4% DPS increase on an ability makes it mandatory, when there are so many downsides to using it (less combo points, less PS procs) especially in PvP. The only argument that makes sense is that shred is higher burst, so obviously if you have the energy to spare (like during berserk) you are far better off using shred than mangle. But comments like "why would I ever use mangle instead of shred" and "you shred from behind, you get parried using mangle from the front" are pure idiocy.

You say "especially for PvP," and if you're talking purely PvP (which "especially" does not imply), you may be right.

If you're not talking purely PvP, you're wrong. A 4% damage increase is mandatory. Avoiding parries from in front is mandatory (which is why Glyph of Shred has no place in PvE except in Ultraxion-type fights). The fact that combo points are coming free and easy enough that the energy difference between Shred and Mangle doesn't nearly make up for that DPS difference is reality.

Incidentally, the 4% increase is a misconception. One Shred is 4% more DPE than one Mangle, but it's 20% more DPS. The more energy pooling we do (and again, that's more in PvE than in PvP), the bigger the damage increase.
(Speaking from a PVE standpoint) I think some people are still looking at this the wrong way.

- Whether you use shred or mangle, you should make an effort to always be behind mobs.

- Using mangle makes it possible to focus on other things during an encounter, rather than seeing "you must be behind your target" constantly on your screen if for some reason the mob spins around.

- The "20% increase damage on bleeding targets" granted by shred is being over-emphasized. What I mean is your combo filler is only approximate 20-25% over your OVERALL damage done on a given fight. In the grand scheme of things, you'll only notice a less than 2% variation in OVERALL damage done/DPS regardless of the filler you use.

This isn't Cata anymore, Blizzard made an attempt to make each spell similar to each other. The OP already posted the math, check it out for yourself, simcraft it, or smack a dummy.

With the removal of the bleed debuff from mangle, the real question should be (and it's sort of what the OP asked) why do we still have (3) abilities that all do the same thing?
Really, for PvE, there are only three relevant points.

  • You should always be behind your target.
  • Shred does more DPS and DPE than Mangle.
  • Energy pooling for the most part negates the very slight energy loss from Shredding over Mangling, meaning that the total CP generation is probably about the same. (Admittedly conjecture as I haven't worked it out myself.)

Which leads to the overriding conclusion, which is "Shred causes your DPS to be higher." If that's 1% higher, it's still 1% higher.

The question about why to have both is a very good one. Positional requirements have often killed us (Kologarn, Ultraxion) and now with the lower difference between damage between these two, it seems less relevant to have a positional requirement at all. I have to imagine the answer is PvP, because most of the answers to questions of "why is this, it makes no sense" are "PvP".
11/08/2012 12:24 PMPosted by Barandis
Which leads to the overriding conclusion, which is "Shred causes your DPS to be higher." If that's 1% higher, it's still 1% higher.


I agree. That said, I don't feel it's mandatory for everyone since both abilities are so close. If the rotation feels smoother to you by using mangle than shred, feel free to do so. The damage gained by using shred over mangle is, for the most part, negligible.

Now, for the people who want to squeeze every bit out of their toon, then obviously shred is the clear winner.

Again, I don' t think the argument should be whether to use mangle or shred (in overall damage both abilities are really close to each other) it's why do we still have abilities that all do the same thing?

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