Sick of Blizz Lies about hearing feedback

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It's frustrating because it feels like Blizzard can't make up their mind on the idea of forced.

Raiders feel forced to do both lock outs? Well then, we'll put then on the same lockout so they don't feel 'forced' to do them.

Players feel 'forced' to do Therazene and just enough Hyjal rep to get enchants? Well, we don't want them to feel compelled so we'll remove head chants and give scribes shoulder chants.

Players feel 'forced' to grind reputation to spend currency they've already earned to unlock gear and profession upgrades? The hell you say- no one is 'forced' to do anything!

Pick a definition and stick with it. And I'm speaking as someone who barely dungeons and earns the vast majority of vp via dailies and the occasional scenario.
11/13/2012 10:35 AMPosted by Daxxarri
Not really. They're different things. The enchantments were absolutely, without-question mandatory, because there was no other way to obtain those particular power increases no matter what else you did in the game.


And to get these very powerful enchants, all you had to do were some dungeons.

Same with Therazane.

Not waste over a month of your time doing boring dailies.
Daxxari, my question for you is, how am I supposed to feel you guys in Blizzard HQ enjoy our feedback if you delete all the posts that consists of feedback?.....
I like that he entirely ignored the point about the Brawler's Guild.
Blizzard has proven many times that they hear us talking, criticizing and complaining. They acknowledge it but that's the extent they go - They think themselves better than any input their player base has to offer and goes through with their plan. Nothing else.
That's fairly rude and unbecoming of someone who is in the position you are in, Dax.

Treating people like an animal by saying, "No! Bad!" and then rubbing their nose in it for jumping the gun is definately not what you should have done. Rather, you should have POLITELY STATED the incorrectness of it and moved on.

In this case, both parties here made an error in judgment. Shame to both of you.


It was a tongue in cheek post, though I've re-read it and I still don't find it particularly offensive. Agree to disagree?

This is an interesting example of dissonance in the style of communication that the community wants though. There's a segment of the community that would prefer nothing but perfectly polite, all-the-sharp-edges-grinded-off kind of customer service speak. Meanwhile, there were many players in this thread requesting 'bluntness'--some specifically to the point of rudeness. I think I usually tend somewhere in the middle, with a touch of humor thrown in now and then.


He treated me like a dog, Mr Wally.

Unfortunately, it seems that you did misinterpret what I wrote. No, the enchantments are not more important than the gear, but they do complement all the gear you'll ever get over the course of that expansion (which is what made those reps essential). In Cataclysm, and previously, you had to have those item enhancements because they would apply over any gear you ever got. In Mists, you can skip rep gear, and move on to better gear, and never miss the reputations you didn't earn in the long run. Not that I'm advocating skipping dailies - there are definitely reasons to do them; just not to the point of fatigue that some choose to. We loosened the cap, and the intention there was to give players some flexibility regarding how they approached them.

While better gear is always helpful, the rep gear is only compelling enough to be called "necessary" relatively early in the progression cycle - and, in truth, it's only "necessary" for the guilds that are competing on that level. On the other hand, it seems that a certain type of player is always running extra miles of one sort or another to be at the cutting edge of content in every expansion, and with every new raid release. I mean, is any tangible, useful reward we provide--regardless of venue--going to seem to be anything less than absolutely mandatory to such a player, unless it is purely cosmetic?

Finally, as Zarhym mentioned elsewhere. We are paying attention and want to do better in the future. We're not in a position to completely re-work the way players interact with dailies on-the-fly, right-this-second. That expectation is unrealistic. We are always interested in learning better ways to approach these design challenges and make fun and compelling content, though.


Thanks for the last paragraph. Sometimes, the fact that you are still looking to make the system better gets lost in all the posts that one has to trudge through, and all that gets conveyed is an impression of a hardened "We know we are right" attitude.

Personally, I am okay with dailies. I do them for mounts anyway :)

But I think that you have gone overboard with them this time. These are the issues I think you need to address:

1. You have made the rewards from them too compelling. Even Cata dungeon rewards pale in comparison IMO.
2. Some of the factions have too many dailies.
3. Gating two very desirable faction reps behind the most grindy rep is not good IMO. It also leads to extra crowding in the questing areas of that particular rep, which makes dailies more time-consuming.

Also, some of the quest mobs are too tightly placed together.
bliz is a lot like hitler :3
That's fairly rude and unbecoming of someone who is in the position you are in, Dax.

Treating people like an animal by saying, "No! Bad!" and then rubbing their nose in it for jumping the gun is definately not what you should have done. Rather, you should have POLITELY STATED the incorrectness of it and moved on.

In this case, both parties here made an error in judgment. Shame to both of you.


It was a tongue in cheek post, though I've re-read it and I still don't find it particularly offensive. Agree to disagree?

This is an interesting example of dissonance in the style of communication that the community wants though. There's a segment of the community that would prefer nothing but perfectly polite, all-the-sharp-edges-grinded-off kind of customer service speak. Meanwhile, there were many players in this thread requesting 'bluntness'--some specifically to the point of rudeness. I think I usually tend somewhere in the middle, with a touch of humor thrown in now and then.


Not one to complain about emotion filled blue responses as long as it goes both ways. We get our threads deleted/locked for our "tongue and cheek" posts and blues get immunity. Clearly that is tainted. However, I do appreciate honesty when I see it rather than generic, watered down regurgatated PR/damage control Blizztivision responses (like 98.7% of all ticket responses)
11/13/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Daxxarri
When I read this, here's what I am understanding. The enchant on the gear is MORE IMPORTANT than the actual gear itself? So, enchant > gear?


Unfortunately, it seems that you did misinterpret what I wrote. No, the enchantments are not more important than the gear, but they do complement all the gear you'll ever get over the course of that expansion (which is what made those reps essential). In Cataclysm, and previously, you had to have those item enhancements because they would apply over any gear you ever got. In Mists, you can skip rep gear, and move on to better gear, and never miss the reputations you didn't earn in the long run. Not that I'm advocating skipping dailies - there are definitely reasons to do them; just not to the point of fatigue that some choose to. We loosened the cap, and the intention there was to give players some flexibility regarding how they approached them.

While better gear is always helpful, the rep gear is only compelling enough to be called "necessary" relatively early in the progression cycle - and, in truth, it's only "necessary" for the guilds that are competing on that level. On the other hand, it seems that a certain type of player is always running extra miles of one sort or another to be at the cutting edge of content in every expansion, and with every new raid release. I mean, is any tangible, useful reward we provide--regardless of venue--going to seem to be anything less than absolutely mandatory to such a player, unless it is purely cosmetic?

Finally, as Zarhym mentioned elsewhere. We are paying attention and want to do better in the future. We're not in a position to completely re-work the way players interact with dailies on-the-fly, right-this-second. That expectation is unrealistic. We are always interested in learning better ways to approach these design challenges and make fun and compelling content, though.


Fair enough.

But I am curious, out of the entire design process, when did "gating" become the standard for everything? Why does Blizzard feel the need to cap my playtime?

Why are there no alternatives to the way you want my character to progress? If I choose to run dungeons for 10 hours a day, should that not be my choice?

The progression of my characters in this expansion have ground to a halt as far as "at my own pace."

It's dailies an nothing else for valor gear and worst, professions and every time I finish a daily it feels like Blizzard is saying to me "Thanks, you're done for the day, come back tomorrow."
That's fairly rude and unbecoming of someone who is in the position you are in, Dax.

Treating people like an animal by saying, "No! Bad!" and then rubbing their nose in it for jumping the gun is definately not what you should have done. Rather, you should have POLITELY STATED the incorrectness of it and moved on.

In this case, both parties here made an error in judgment. Shame to both of you.


It was a tongue in cheek post, though I've re-read it and I still don't find it particularly offensive. Agree to disagree?

This is an interesting example of dissonance in the style of communication that the community wants though. There's a segment of the community that would prefer nothing but perfectly polite, all-the-sharp-edges-grinded-off kind of customer service speak. Meanwhile, there were many players in this thread requesting 'bluntness'--some specifically to the point of rudeness. I think I usually tend somewhere in the middle, with a touch of humor thrown in now and then.


Use the spray bottle next time. It also gives them physical awareness that something is bad.
Has been covered before, but here goes:

The forums represent a tiny fraction of players. Why would you expect them to make a change every time a large number of posters here supported it?


Because what better source of feedback do they have other than playtime, tickets, and unsubscribes?

What other source do they have that provides direct feedback about how people are feeling about / experiencing an aspect of the game?

Yes, they can see a lot of people are both doing GL dailies and Tiller dailies. But does that also mean that the two experiences are equally enjoyable?

If they went to each server and did a random survery of 100 players, then they would get an excellent sense of how people feel about this game. However, it would be very foolish for Blizzard to think that forums represent only a figment of players, meanwhile, everyone who doesn't post on the forums is 100% happy with the game.

No company is going to always think the complaints are only the minority while everyone else is 100% happy; thus, it's the complainers that must be delustional.

That's like saying people don't vote because they are happy with their government. Voter apathy occurs because of dissatisfaction.


Randomly polling 100 players on a server is a very different situation than these forums. Just as a JD powers survey is going to paint a different picture than a customer feedback forum.

No, the assumption cannot be made that everyone who's not posting here is happy with the game, but one can't assume the ratio of those happy/not is the same for non-posters and posters alike. I'd suggest that people are more likely to be here because they do have a problem with the game, and thus the ratio of happy to not would be higher in the non-posting population.

So, if it's likely that the ratio of people who are generally happy with the game (at least to the degree they're going to keep paying) in the much, much larger non-posting population is better than the ratio for the posters, then the point stands.

The forum postings should be given some weight, but not as much as many people seem to think.
It's frustrating because it feels like Blizzard can't make up their mind on the idea of forced.

Raiders feel forced to do both lock outs? Well then, we'll put then on the same lockout so they don't feel 'forced' to do them.

Players feel 'forced' to do Therazene and just enough Hyjal rep to get enchants? Well, we don't want them to feel compelled so we'll remove head chants and give scribes shoulder chants.

Players feel 'forced' to grind reputation to spend currency they've already earned to unlock gear and profession upgrades? The hell you say- no one is 'forced' to do anything!

Pick a definition and stick with it. And I'm speaking as someone who barely dungeons and earns the vast majority of vp via dailies and the occasional scenario.


Well said. I definitely agree here too. It's almost like it only really matters to them when THEY feel the player is doing too much, you know?
I believe that Blizzard does listen to our suggestions. I believe that Activision/Bizz then promptly round files them and does what they damn well want. After all, it is THEIR company and their game. We're just the customers.

We're just the ones who foot the bill, make their mortgage payments and keep them in a job. Why should they listen to us? Maybe if they lose another 2 million players, they will start to take things we "suggest" seriously. (Peak subscribers was 12 million. They are now at 10 and dropping. That's a lot of money.)

The first time they made some really stupid changes to warlocks, it was a disaster. People flocked to the boards in numbers much less than the negative posts I've seen on CRZ. Blizzard, (before it was Activision/Blizzard), listened and it was not implemented.

However, CRZ is a money saving device for them but it's also a game killer.

People will leave the game over it and they won't come back. Little by little, those 2 million who leave will become 10 million and Activision/Blizz is left with 100,000 subscribers.
11/13/2012 12:18 PMPosted by Christhemity
Daxxari, my question for you is, how am I supposed to feel you guys in Blizzard HQ enjoy our feedback if you delete all the posts that consists of feedback?.....


Simply because a thread contains feedback doesn't mean that it abides by our posting guidelines or code of conduct. Constructive feedback should probably be the buzzword, rather than feedback on its own.

We welcome it, we want to read it, and we want to share it with the development teams. You still need to play by the rules while you're here, if you want to be heard.
Can someone tell me where I can spend my VP before I hardcap it this week? I don't have Shado-Pan or August Celestials yet cause I didn't feel like doing dailies beyond just getting 90 coins a week...
That's fairly rude and unbecoming of someone who is in the position you are in, Dax.

Treating people like an animal by saying, "No! Bad!" and then rubbing their nose in it for jumping the gun is definately not what you should have done. Rather, you should have POLITELY STATED the incorrectness of it and moved on.

In this case, both parties here made an error in judgment. Shame to both of you.


This is what's wrong with the world today. Overly sensitive, politically correct kids that can't take a joke. Even when their entire post is pure insults and vitrol hurled at the blue posters.


There is nothing funny in debasing other people.

And I didn't hurl an insult or vitrol, I stated they were wrong for doing so.

If anything is wrong with the world today, its the guise of people (like yourself) attempting to help in a situation when in reality its just wanton bullying and singling out of single individuals and then paying lip service to the abuse as if it were a badge of honor to do so.
11/13/2012 12:05 PMPosted by Azloran
How is grinding rep for a head enchant any different from grinding rep for say... a weapon enchant recipe?


The difference is that grinding rep for the head enchant was the only way to get the head enchant.

The weapon enchant recipe, you can always find an enchanter that did go through the work to get it, or through the AH to obtain the enchant.

The fact that the grind is there, regardless of whether you personally had to do it or not, is the point.

Either way, I came to make my point, Dax: Rather than remove things to make them no longer mandatory, make alternatives available. Rather than enforce a set path, dailies or no, give free reign over the player's gear progression to them. Rather than assume people don't want to do something, try asking?

Back on topic, I do think the OP has a completely valid point. Rather than come to the forums and/or announce the board-approved long-term public-friendly cliff notes versions of stuff, PLEASE, let US have some kind of feedback, and actually acknowledge it in some way other than the usual "We value your feedback, kthx pay at the window". I mean, would it hurt to have a couple of (non-GC, he's basically where the OP is pointing the blame) devs spend some time each week doing some kind of Q&A session on a small-medium scale for an hour?

Also: thinly veiled artificial gating is bad. (total valor cap, BMAH brawler's guild invites)
DAX, YOU ARE A STRONG, BEAUTIFUL, INDEPENDENT BLUE THING. DONT YOU EVER CHANGE WHO YOU ARE. <3

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