Sick of Blizz Lies about hearing feedback

General Discussion
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11/13/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Daxxarri
forums are different in several key ways. Among them--and I don't want to get into how statistics works in detail (especially since I'm not an expert)--but I do know that the forums are what is called a 'self selecting sample', and that trying to derive representative statistics from such a sampling is an excellent way to get skewed results.


Nice one, so that's why you listened to the forum crybabies and tried to bring back the BC dungeon model in the start of Cata, which cost you tons of Wrath subscribers, and now you are trying to bring back the BC daily questing model, which will cost you another ton of subs.

You got it alright in Wrath. Yes, the system had its deficiencies, but it had the wide appeal you now seem to be losing. Just study ingame people behavior and use that for statistic, because as you said above

11/13/2012 04:23 PMPosted by Hollypolly
It's true that the forum population represents a relatively small chunk of the overall player base. It's also true that the kind of player that's apt to post on the forums doesn't necessarily represent all of the vast and incredibly diverse World of Warcraft community,


Basically, you are running into the same brick wall, at rocket speeds, breaking your heads over and over again, because of two things.

1. Too small a sample to be statistically significant.
2. Different type of players than the silent masses who actually play.

See that people don't do much dailies ? Well, don't FORCE them into dailies.
See that people love to hang in cities ? Don't FORCE them out.

Small incentives and optional stuff is OK, but mandatory routines and a must-have stuff ? Totally NOT OK.

Don't FORCE people into anything they AVOID. Arguments like "dailies deserved it" are absolutely invalid. Regardless of how anyone on this forums defines "forcing", it's pretty obvious that if someone feels forced into something, that's sufficient to make an argument that they are, indeed, being forced into it. We don't call it "entertainment" for nothing. We want to FEEL well, not FEEL FORCED into stuff we hate. Feelings do matter.

People may as well figure that indeed, nobody is forcing them to play this game and not renew their annual subs when they expire. Have no doubt that's what they are gonna do once they run into that brick wall called "daily grinds".

Keep BC and Vanilla in the past. Let them rest in the piece they deserve. Nostalgic people will always be nostalgic, but even they don't take into account the fact, that if they were to play in the same way they used to in the past, they would fail, because now they are all grown up, and have lives, and jobs, and families and everything that comes with age.
11/13/2012 11:34 AMPosted by Seraphimilim
You know, people would probably have a higher opinion of the blue team at the moment if you guys would stop cherry picking out the "easy" posts to answer.


This is my biggest problem with Blizz's stance on feedback. They solicit feedback, listen to at least some of it, but they love to cherry-pick and only respond to the "softballs" while ignoring the majority of it. I understand that a lot of feedback on here is trolling and obnoxious in nature, and those things probably shouldn't be responded to, but it would be nice if the coherent, thoughtful, polite posts were addressed, instead of largely ignored.

Take for example, the thread where they requested feedback about CRZ. Thread got hundreds of pages long with dozens of listed problems, glitches, bugs, and unwelcome side effects. Granted, most of the posts on there were argumentative or trolling, but some were not. Some were polite, articulate, and raised good points. Then the followup "CRZ Update" thread basically ignored most of what was brought up in the original thread that had expressly asked for feedback. The only complaints they even bothered addressing were time-zone jumps (which they said they're still working out how to address) and zone-transition lag (which they said they're working working on). Oh yeah, and this gem:

"There are technical limitations preventing multi-passenger mounts from holding separate characters when crossing a zone boundary. Unfortunately, this isn’t something that we can quickly or easily fix."

The post was then closed with this:

"Despite a few lingering technical issues, we’re happy with how CRZ is populating the leveling areas with other players, and helping to once again foster MMO social experiences in the 1-85 content."

They expressly asked players for feedback, then chose to ignore 99% of that feedback and tried to minimize the very few drawbacks they did address, only to tell us that they're still happy with it "despite a few technical issues." The whole thing was basically a giant middle finger to those players who took the time to respond with constructive, coherent feedback.

Likewise, in threads such as these, there are always a few posters who can manage to make a coherent, constructive post that says "This is what I don't like about X and this is why I don't like it." Many of these raise very good points that would be nice to have addressed, but they rarely are, but then you see a CM swoop in to the same thread to respond to another poster who is a blowhard troll that posts in all caps who clearly has no idea what they're talking about, so the CM is easily able to make the person look like a fool, but they've chosen not to respond to the person who has raised a valid point in a calm and constructive manner.

TLDR: This is what drives me nuts about Blizz's treatment of feedback. Not that they don't listen to it, but that they solicit feedback, then ignore most of it and cherry-pick what parts of it they actually address based on what appears to support what their position was before they ever asked for the feedback.
Dax is correct that using this forum as a an accurate sample of the player base would be self-selecting bias.

You chose on your own to post here and as such you are of a certain mindset along with all the others who did as well. It's not 10 million we are even talking about, these forums here only represent a portion of the WoW populace at large to begin with since they are just one of the many forums blizzard operates (NA/EU/KR ect) so we are a biased selection for that as well.

I can say how I feel about the dailies, maybe slightly too many or perhaps just too many per faction. I would be happier if it was 4-6 max per faction rather then say for example the golden lotus where you do 5+4+3+1+1. It also might be better to just have 1 random hub for the lotus each day rather then the gate every day + the random (villiage, ruins, lake) + the training grounds/wall. I'll state that this is how I FEEL and I don't speak for anyone else but me.

All of this said, I am MUCH happier with MoP then cata. I do feel far more engaged, I have more things to do. Is there room for improvement? Sure, because I am my own person and as such have my own tastes but I'd never go so far as to say that what I want to see is what everyone else wants.
right because the irony of you referring to people as children and using condescending terms is somehow better?

I'd say that's sad, but it's just pathetic.


Right, because starting off by implying I was a teenager, calling the folks that work for blizzard "denks" and insisting that because we pay them $15 dollars a month so we get to abuse them however we like and they simply have to take it, then insisting I'm a "fanboy" because I don't think they should take whatever crap we shovel their way with a smile on their face was totally an adult response to my initial comment.

I'm sorry that calling you childish hurt your feelings when you brought such an adult comment to the table in the first place. Grow up. You want respect, you give it. Expect that from me, expect that from the CMs, expect that from anybody.
11/14/2012 09:49 AMPosted by Brobocop
You know, people would probably have a higher opinion of the blue team at the moment if you guys would stop cherry picking out the "easy" posts to answer.


This is my biggest problem with Blizz's stance on feedback. They solicit feedback, listen to at least some of it, but they love to cherry-pick and only respond to the "softballs" while ignoring the majority of it. I understand that a lot of feedback on here is trolling and obnoxious in nature, and those things probably shouldn't be responded to, but it would be nice if the coherent, thoughtful, polite posts were addressed, instead of largely ignored.

Take for example, the thread where they requested feedback about CRZ. Thread got hundreds of pages long with dozens of listed problems, glitches, bugs, and unwelcome side effects. Granted, most of the posts on there were argumentative or trolling, but some were not. Some were polite, articulate, and raised good points. Then the followup "CRZ Update" thread basically ignored most of what was brought up in the original thread that had expressly asked for feedback. The only complaints they even bothered addressing were time-zone jumps (which they said they're still working out how to address) and zone-transition lag (which they said they're working working on). Oh yeah, and this gem:

"There are technical limitations preventing multi-passenger mounts from holding separate characters when crossing a zone boundary. Unfortunately, this isn’t something that we can quickly or easily fix."

The post was then closed with this:

"Despite a few lingering technical issues, we’re happy with how CRZ is populating the leveling areas with other players, and helping to once again foster MMO social experiences in the 1-85 content."

They expressly asked players for feedback, then chose to ignore 99% of that feedback and tried to minimize the very few drawbacks they did address, only to tell us that they're still happy with it "despite a few technical issues." The whole thing was basically a giant middle finger to those players who took the time to respond with constructive, coherent feedback.

Likewise, in threads such as these, there are always a few posters who can manage to make a coherent, constructive post that says "This is what I don't like about X and this is why I don't like it." Many of these raise very good points that would be nice to have addressed, but they rarely are, but then you see a CM swoop in to the same thread to respond to another poster who is a blowhard troll that posts in all caps who clearly has no idea what they're talking about, so the CM is easily able to make the person look like a fool, but they've chosen not to respond to the person who has raised a valid point in a calm and constructive manner.

TLDR: This is what drives me nuts about Blizz's treatment of feedback. Not that they don't listen to it, but that they solicit feedback, then ignore most of it and cherry-pick what parts of it they actually address based on what appears to support what their position was before they ever asked for the feedback.


But didn't you just cherrypick your examples to make your point? That is how all debates or arguments are made. Me for example, I just chose to cherrypick your reply to respond to, there are 34 pages (at present) of posts in this topic. It would be unrealistic for me to respond to all of them or ten percent of them regardless of how eloquent the poster might be.

To add to this you cherrypicked this topic to reply to, there are thousands of other topics again, as you said, some are well thought out, some are rude and obnoxious, others are just plain garbage/trolling. The job of a CM is to pick topics that are the most common, relevant and clearly stated to begin to reply to and then once they have it becomes damage control because of the ocean of attacks that will flood in because there is a "blue" in the thread. There is no way for them to make the right choice since, any choice they make will be viewed as wrong by someone.
But didn't you just cherrypick your examples to make your point? That is how all debates or arguments are made. Me for example, I just chose to cherrypick your reply to respond to, there are 34 pages (at present) of posts in this topic. It would be unrealistic for me to respond to all of them or ten percent of them regardless of how eloquent the poster might be.

To add to this you cherrypicked this topic to reply to, there are thousands of other topics again, as you said, some are well thought out, some are rude and obnoxious, others are just plain garbage/trolling. The job of a CM is to pick topics that are the most common, relevant and clearly stated to begin to reply to and then once they have it becomes damage control because of the ocean of attacks that will flood in because there is a "blue" in the thread. There is no way for them to make the right choice since, any choice they make will be viewed as wrong by someone.


I don't think you and I have the same definition for cherry-picking. Choosing which topics you care about or have a vested interest in does not constitute cherry-picking. Cherry-picking is when you look at a wealth of information or topics, and choose to focus your attention on only the information or topics that make you look good, while blatantly ignoring the rest.

For example, I, as a warrior on a non-RP realm, deciding that RP and mage forums do not pertain to me is not cherry-picking, because my motivation is not that the mage and RP forums would make me look bad, so I choose to ignore them. They simply aren't relevant to my playstyle.

On the other side of the coin, a CM who comes into a thread that knocks some feature of the game game or Blizzard's customer service, and chooses to ignore a well-stated post that's intelligent and polite that makes a very valid point, but chooses to respond to an unintelligent, obnoxious troll who is easily refuted, is absolutely cherry-picking. By being in the thread, the CM has already declared that the topic is worthwhile, but then they choose to respond primarily to threads that makes their position look better, while ignoring ones that make them look worse. This is what bothers me. If a thread is important enough for a blue to post in at all, it should be important enough for them to respond to the intelligent and polite posts that bring up good points, not just the unintelligent troll posts that they can easily slap down.
I didn't read every page, just the Blue posts but... Did they completely skip over the main issue the OP talked about which was CRZ...

I saw talk on the third issue regarding enchants and the dailies... but no CRZ... Which kind of proves OPs point in making the fact they ignore half the important issues that go on and talk about the miniature things like enchants.


The difference is that grinding rep for the head enchant was the only way to get the head enchant.

The weapon enchant recipe, you can always find an enchanter that did go through the work to get it, or through the AH to obtain the enchant.

The fact that the grind is there, regardless of whether you personally had to do it or not, is the point.


That's where you're wrong.

THAT IS the whole point.

You can spend gold or you can grind rep. You have a choice.

For the enchanters themselves, you can choose to skip the grind or you could go after it because it's lucrative and you can make more gold off your profession than someone who didn't do the grind, again it's a choice. The enchant will be available in one form or another either via the AH or via your own mats, there's nothing requiring you to grind for the recipe other than your own motivation.

With the old shoulder and helmet enchants, you literally DIDN'T have a choice. If you didn't personally do the grind, there was no way of getting those augmentations that remained relevant throughout the entirety of the expansion.
Other think is what i don't understand is:
The serpents are shared to the toons on your account but why all the toons need get be exalted whit the faction to get able to fly them.
Is not nice.
Well, here's what I would say to that. When I worked in customer service, 98% of my calls were issues, some bad some trivial, some a nightmare to fix and some as easy as a few keystrokes.

I worked for Dish Network, I handled 320-400 calls a day in technical support. I may have gotten 1 call per week that was a happy customer who just wanted to add a service and hit the wrong menu button and got me instead of sales.

The CM's here deal with reading enough posts here a day to choke a blue whale, so I can't fault them for the blissful moments when someone actually has something nice to say they want to enjoy that moment and reply to tell them thank you for saying that for this brief moment we (the cm's) can feel like someone actually enjoyed the game. Then they get to go back to the 99% (in their case) of complaints and bugs and trolling they get to sift thru.

This isn't to say that there are nothing but bugs in the game, it's to say that we as humans focus on the negative. It is exceptionally rare that we will comment on what we are happy about.
11/13/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Those polls only used a few thousand people...


That said, election polls and the forums are different in several key ways. Among them--and I don't want to get into how statistics works in detail (especially since I'm not an expert)--but I do know that the forums are what is called a 'self selecting sample', and that trying to derive representative statistics from such a sampling is an excellent way to get skewed results.


Correct.
"Ain't nothing in this world for free"
When I hear discussion about cheerypicking where do give a response, I don't really think the frustation is most with what posts within a thread receive a reply (although it's surely part of it).

What I DO think continuously frustrates people is when there are multiple threads about a problem, or a single thread addressing a major problem, and then the blue post appears in a fluff thread about the "sha of happiness"

It reminds of diablo 3 when it launched. There were countless threads discussing all the problems in the game. Occasionally, there would be a thread with someone stating "I know you guys receive a lot of negative comments, but I wanted you to know I really like this game" and -bam- that would be the thread that gets a response.

This is what really infuriates people because it basically gives the impression that they only want to deal with any positive comments while ignoring the negative ones.


This is precisely what I'm talking about it. It really reminds me of a regular feature on the SWTOR forum called "Ask the Dev." Basically, they would ask for players to submit questions, of which, a handful would be selected to be answered by the Devs.

While that sounds good in theory, in practice, it was probably worse than no communication at all. Each time they would get dozens of very good questions about major bugs or problems with the game, often-requested features, and questions about development for content that was extremely slow in coming. This was at a time when they were absolutely hemorrhaging subs because of a myriad of problems that people were submitting for this culumn wanting to know that their concerns were being heard and addressed.

However, invariably, they would answer mindless softball fluff questions such as "WAT IZ UR FAVRIT STAR WARS KWOTE!?!?!" or "I LIKES THIS KWEST, KAN WE HAZ 78 MOAR JUST LIKE IT" or "CAN I HAZ A PET WOOKIE?"

It was infuriating to see the devs blatantly ignore scores of questions that were real concerns as hundreds of thousands of people were unsubbing, only to have some mindless fluff answered that very few people actually cared about besides the person submitting the question. And if they did accidentally slip a real question into the column, the answer was almost always "We're working on it," or "We don't have a timetable on that." Even worse, the column often repeated the same or similar questions over and over. Eventually, players were so pissed off at what a joke the column was that they just canceled it altogether, which was probably a good thing, because it was just insulting.

That's how blue interactions are starting to feel for me, and I don't like it.
11/14/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Librily
It's called doublespeak and it works particularly well against ignorant people.


Yes, it's obvious to me that it's massive doublespeak.

I'm upset for not recognizing it sooner, or as a constant, and that's why I posted I'm sick of bliz lies.

I can admit that lies is perhaps too strong, and I would be very willing to replace it with:

Sick of Bliz DoubleSpeak regarding hearing feedback.

Doublespeak has several defining features:

-misleads
-distorts reality
-pretends to communicate
-makes the bad seem good
-avoids or shifts responsibility
-creates incongruity between reality and what is said or not said

These features are so obvious to me when I read blue posts, and honestly, I'm not sure why it isn't more obvious to more people.


There is also legitimate reasons for using non-specific language. Mainly because if they do make specific pronouncements or predictions and those don't come to pass due to changes then they are called liars.

Blizzard being vague and non-specific = liars
Blizzard being specific but not 100% accurate = liars

So, the only way for Blizzard not be liars (besides shutting down communication altogether) is to be specific and 100% accurate in predicting all future behavior. Sure, no problem.
With regards to the Blues "cherrypicking"/only responding to the positive threads: We have to remember that it doesn't take any checking of notes from meetings with the Devs or higher-ups to respond with a "Thank you for saying that :)" or to post in the Sha of Happiness thread.

In order to respond in a real way to a thread with negative & constructive feedback, they have to check with their notes/the Devs/their higher-ups before doing so to make sure that they're giving out accurate information. If there's one thing that I know Blues aren't allowed to do, it's speculate about upcoming content or developer decisions.

We also have to remember that they're just people, too, and that they're here to both be a part of and to help the community - and that doesn't always mean having an answer for an issue we have with the game.
11/13/2012 09:51 AMPosted by Felocity
Very tired of being mislead and lied to by this gaming company.


Your not being lied too, they ARE reading your bull!@#$ feedback " TAKE OUT NAO"

They never said " We promise we will take this out soon!:_)"

So like i said, your not being lied too.


Someone needs a hug :)

Why do you have to be such a douche?

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