Sick of Blizz Lies about hearing feedback

General Discussion
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11/22/2012 07:22 AMPosted by Demiurge
versus defending blizz and refusing to acknowledge ANY of their choices are for less than noble reasons?


More like blind, zealous "I want this and that and screw everyone else" versus "Hey! I actually understand why the hell they're doing it this way."
11/20/2012 08:05 PMPosted by Saanen
NO, it translates to tying everything to a single system forces people into it. You have two choices, either you raid (LFR, normal or heroic), or you do dailies. Nothing else has a progression path.


Isn't that more choice than previously where you had raiding and nothing else?

I wouldn't really call dailies a progression path. It's supplemental.

I am reluctant to log in now to WOW because I am burned out by the dailies. Be it peer pressure from guild or competitiveness or even just to kill mobs in dailies, I have always felt the need to improve.

These days, the only thing that I will log in for, are the August Celestial dailies and will promptly log off when done. I have asked myself why the major shift in my play times and only one answer I have gotten is being burnt out. So much so that I do not wish to join LFD or even LFR or do fun dailies like Sky race.

Optional or not, dailies are there to entice players with rewards. Being honored or exalted doesn't make a difference as it's still a grind albeit the time difference needed.

It's like feeling Vanilla wow days all over again back when I was raiding MC. But the difference is I was 8 years younger. I have a family of my own now and World of Dailies isn't my definition of fun.

I will be cancelling my subscription with the pvp dailies in krasarang wilds looming in sight.

Have fun all.


You should have husbanded your time playing better. The only person whose fault it is for getting burned on dailies is.. you, for doing them. When the hell did it become Blizzard's job to manage your playing time? While I'm at it, when the hell did it become wrong for players to do something a bit tedious on the way to greater things? The Instant Gratification Syndrome among the player base is astounding.

11/20/2012 08:05 PMPosted by Saanen
There is a reason why they put all those rewards into that system, you know what is that reason? To "encourage" (force) people into doing a content that otherwise they wouldnt do.


You mean like forcing me spam dungeons with a tabard previously? That's the part I don't really get. How is it that dailies get all this hostility when it's clear, objectively, that the previous way "forced" you into something else just as much?

You know, you're lucky, really. Blizzard didn't have to add Valor to dailies. They didn't have to add Charms. They could have just left them with gold as a reward, and then you would still "need" to do them from your point of view, but you'd be getting less for it.
Any ETA on CRZ fixes? Not troling/whatever but i am interested when all the bugs are going to be worked out. Good Luck all!


No specific ETAs, but there are some changes coming in 5.1 that may help address some of the issues with the timing of holiday events, confusion over realm time zone changes, and the like.
How about helping to address the issue some players have: CRZ?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7004442380?page=1 around 3697posts.post

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6679517893 13251posts.

around 3blue posts on these threads.

I saw somewhere a blue post or tweet on mmochampion that the intention wasnt to save $. Really? Then you wouldnt mind to add an optout option for those who dont like CRZ. Im not asking to remove CRZ. Simply an opt out option.

and I found it: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7006898525?page=14#278

You're just not correct, and you have no basis for comparison to even begin to understand any financial motivations behind the implementation of CRZ.

That's my biggest problem with a lot of the negative feedback I see on hot issues like CRZ: Not that it's negative, but that people usually need to explain the unknown by formulating what I'd define as straight-up conspiracy theories. And they spread like wildfire. We are probably in part to blame for it, but sometimes all the insights and behind-the-scenes facts just can't be shared in a meaningful way with the public. There's just not a lot to be accomplished by engaging with people who say such changes are financially driven (i.e. cost efficiency > gameplay or customer concerns), or that they provide the path of least resistance for us in terms of our production pipeline.

We come off looking very defensive purely by nature of responding to a fallacious, hyperbolic, or incredibly presumptive argument. And, yet, that somehow tends to validate a conspiracy on the forums. This is an extreme example, but I'll use it since it was posted in this very thread:
I guessed that the ''conspiracy theories'' was that you use CRZ to save $. Like I said upper, if its not then you wouldnt mind adding an opt out option.

Prove me wrong and add an opt out option for those who hate CRZ, blizzard.


You mean like forcing me spam dungeons with a tabard previously? That's the part I don't really get. How is it that dailies get all this hostility when it's clear, objectively, that the previous way "forced" you into something else just as much?

You know, you're lucky, really. Blizzard didn't have to add Valor to dailies. They didn't have to add Charms. They could have just left them with gold as a reward, and then you would still "need" to do them from your point of view, but you'd be getting less for it.


Which is why we are asking for an ALTERNATIVE, get it? ALTERNATIVE.

Keep the dailies AND the alternative, so the people liking the dailies could do it, and the people that like instanced content doesnt get burned out from doing thousands of dailies.

Yes, the previous system also had flaws, just liek this one, we are asking for one better than both, one with ALTERNATIVES.

And yes, you might like it or not, but the real reason why all those rewards are there is to force people into doing them, whether those people realize it or not.

There are more ways to force people into doing something than just poiting a gun at them, some of them are more sutile ways, like this one.
11/22/2012 09:20 AMPosted by Saanen
And yes, you might like it or not, but the real reason why all those rewards are there is to force people into doing them, whether those people realize it or not.


The rewards are there to make people want to do them, yes. What's your point? Also, again, they could remove Valor, gold, and Charms, and you'd still feel like that. It's Thanksgiving. Be thankful you get so many rewards for daily quests.
11/22/2012 09:30 AMPosted by Hyjinx
And yes, you might like it or not, but the real reason why all those rewards are there is to force people into doing them, whether those people realize it or not.


The rewards are there to make people want to do them, yes. What's your point? Also, again, they could remove Valor, gold, and Charms, and you'd still feel like that. It's Thanksgiving. Be thankful you get so many rewards for daily quests.


No if they remove valor access, gold and charms i would just ignore them like i ignored them in the past expansions.

Dailies have been here since vanilla, there is a reason why this is the first time people complain so much about them, its not a coincidence that they have all those huge rewards now...

The point is that people are forced to do content they hate, and that is causing them to have a bad gaming experience, which lead them to quit. Its a big point, its a big problem, and feedback is completely valid.

What i dont understand is which is YOUR point.
11/22/2012 10:37 AMPosted by Saanen
there is a reason why this is the first time people complain so much about them, its not a coincidence that they have all those huge rewards now...


You obviously have not been paying attention much if you think this is the first time people are complaining about dailies.
I don't think I have it in me to read 1270 posts on this subject, but I have read some and here's my thought...

Does Blizz lie? No, I do not think so, but I think the lack of communication with the public is what gets them in hot water. I think most of this stems from around the end of WotLK when the Developers left the forums only leaving the CM's to pass along the messages.

I commend the CM's for trying to answer questions, but the reality is, you for the most part, do not have the answers to give the public when they ask for them or at least that's what it looks like from this side.

The result is, when changes are made, or upcoming features are announced, the public gives feedback, whether it is good or bad, and then asks the CM's questions about it. But from what I can see, you do not have the answers because you are not a developer. The result is huge lag time between us asking, and you getting answers, if there is one that can be given OR the public thinks the points they are trying to make get lost/ignored somewhere between the CM's and the Developers.

And to make the matters worse, I think that when a feature is implemented and people really seems to dislike, there are so few cases for its reversal that people just believe you do not listen. I mean it is completely understandable from a players stand point because the telephone system is for the most part a 1-way street where the things we say will not be answered (I'm not saying they all should because that's too much for anyone to handle).

But when case after case, feature after feature and miscommunication after miscommunication occurs time and time again, it REALLY gets annoying on our end.

I know it's not easy on your end, but when a lot of people start asking questions, I think its only far that answers be given. Silence only creates turmoil and breeds anger because people have time invested in this game too.

In the end, I think when a change that effects mass groups of people, whether it is a unlocking event like dailies, or a class mechanic, or an obvious problem with some classes/specs being OP, then more effort needs to be put in to help people understand. Because from where I sit, it is lacking pretty badly these days.

And please, do not quote twitter as being a source to communicate with the developers because we all know you can't truly answer the really tough problems of this game in just a few words.
11/22/2012 10:37 AMPosted by Saanen
The point is that people are forced to do content they hate, and that is causing them to have a bad gaming experience, which lead them to quit. Its a big point, its a big problem, and feedback is completely valid.


But dailies aren't required. That's what you keep missing.

It's all about what's deemed worthwhile. If you guys deem the rewards that dailies provide as worth getting, then the dailies are worth doing.

Now, if dailies were absolutely required - let's say, by requiring Exalted with the 4 major factions before you could step into a raid - THEN you would have a point. However, the current system is a very far cry from that.
If Bliz cared a lick about feedback mage lvl 90 talents would never have made it out of the box. The whole community has been voicing it's frustration and disappointment with these from day one of their debut on MoP beta, and 5.1 is slated to go live with out a single meaningful adjustment to them.
Thing is they have to weigh against their data to determine which is superior for implementation. Then, at times it seems, they get hopeful that they can quick fix a long term issue.

I did try to do things their way, just couldn't stand it. It's to the point I'm just running out my sub. However they want to say we can just play around how things are set up is not working for me, not enough to keep my interest and so painful I cannot even log in. Truly hate dailies.

If I'm unique in this opinion then I would not recommend they change things to make me happy. If they change things too quickly you risk upsetting more people, even if it ultimately means that they lose a few.
11/19/2012 07:20 AMPosted by Haytore
Can you direct me to the vendor that will take my valor points for gear, without me doing dailies? Or am I just stuck with useless valor points. Should call them grind points


This really doesn't need repeating for the 10,000th time, but in 5.1 you'll have a solution - you can upgrade your gear using Valor and Justice points, which is a more than acceptable solution for mitigating bad luck alongside whichever of the many gearing paths you choose to take.

What you can't do any more is actually gear up by grinding Valor. You'll have to actually choose one or more of the in-game methods that provide gear to do that.
11/16/2012 01:49 PMPosted by Daxxarri
The players that aren't okay with the situation almost certainly aren't going to change their minds because we made a post. They're almost always heavily invested in a particular position on the subject, and further discourse won't alter their opinion. In these cases, the expressed desire for follow-up on feedback doesn't result in useful clarification; it simply provides more ammunition for a debate. Typically a debate that already played out in prior feedback and resulted in a decision one way or another.


I disagree with this conclusion. Just because some people are heavily invested in their opinion, the rest of us don't get an explanation of your way of thinking, or why you made a certain decision? Not everyone is a rigid ideologue. Some of us would like to hear the reasons for why things are the way they are, even when we don't agree. It makes me feel better about giving you guys my money when I understand where you're coming from, even if I would not have made the same decisions in your place.

11/16/2012 01:49 PMPosted by Daxxarri
While sometimes it's necessary to make our stance clear, refraining from a 'this is just the way it is, and here's why' statement can offer us the latitude to change our minds in the future.


You don't have to do that, though. I'm thinking back to when GC made that huge blog post about how dungeons were supposed to be hard, which made him look pretty foolish when that model was retired. But he could have expressed the reasoning for dungeons being difficult during Cata without implying that they would ALWAYS be that way, with no possibility for changing his mind. He could have phrased it more like "In Cata we decided to try things being this way, for reasons XYZ, and we will always continue to see how things are working and make any necessary changes".

You can give reasons for a decision without implying that the decision is set in stone forever. That's all I'm saying.
I thought, that when they first introduced badge gear (back in Wrath), it was designed because being at the mercy of RNG for your gear progression wasn't fun. They wanted you to be able to fill in a slot here or there that you just can't seem to get to drop, or kept loosing the roll. They didn't want it to be super fast, but they did want to help you out if all you needed was one slot piece.

What ended up happening is that people could gear quickly, and the developers realized that people who can go through content quicker, means more people 'finish' the game sooner, which means less subscriptions.

Now we have a rep grind to try and slow down the pace of progression in an attempt to get people to play longer. This entire expansion has a feeling of trying to make things take longer, because they seem to think that longer time = longer subscriptions. And that may work out a bit, but because people are used to the game not being the same old MMO grind, they're going to loose some customers as well.

Is there any gameplay reason to lock AC and Shadow Pan behind Golden Lotus? I haven't heard anyone come up with a reason. The reason is that they didn't want you to be able to grind all the factions out within the first month. Locking two factions behind one forced you to waste time if you wanted anything from the other two factions. If they had been available right away, people would have done them at the same time as doing GL.
11/25/2012 10:42 AMPosted by Omglolwellz
when they first introduced badge gear (back in Wrath)


Badge gear was introduced in BC. It was near the end, though, so it was mostly seen as a way for people to catch up who might be new to the game. It was awesome for gearing alts, too. What changed in Wrath is that badge gear existed from day 1, so it wasn't just a catch-up mechanism, it became part of what all raiders had to do on their mains.
Wow, what a long thread.

I think my only comment on this thread is that one little posting by someone early on pointing to the WoW Insider Show podcast, episode 266: On rep and dailies in MoP. That pretty much sums up the major problems and provides many possible solutions, and I hope Bliz implements them soon.

Generally speaking I decided to renew for a month but, ultimately, decided not to purchase this expansion. And for three very simple reasons: (1) The development of the game seems entirely focused on slowing players down and not focused enough on making the game fun. (2) The class changes have been horrendous across the board. The mechanics have degraded immensely (at least for my priest, warlock, and shaman). Some potentially fun things were added but they were made so restrictive as to not actually be any fun to use, or too situational, particularly with the Warlock. And (3) WTF no red quests? Still? There are some of us who would rather do quests at higher levels that actually pose a challenge, particularly when leveling up alts, but it's kinda hard when the quest givers have grey exclamation points above their heads or no exclamation points at all! Come on! That's an easy one to fix! I have a laundry list of (easily) dozen-plus show-stoppers in the game, but there's no point posting them.

In anycase, as much as I appreciate all the work Bliz put into this expansion, it's current incarnation just isn't worth either the price of the expansion or the ongoing monthly fee. And I've heard too many horror stories to be willing to risk running a longer subscription. So, sorry bliz.

I'll end with the things I like about the expansion (noting that I am limited to level 85, so I can't really comment on the quest lines from 85-90):

* Love the consolidated pets and mounts.

* Think the pet battles will be a fun addition once the kinks get worked out.

* New talent mechanics are a step forward (but still three steps backwards from the original tiered system, unfortunately). Maybe Bliz could take it another step forward this expansion?

* Love the incremental loading.

* World refresh was done well (would be more enjoyable if we had red quests back, though).

* Quest story lines seem more fleshed out at lower levels.

* The panda storyline starter was fun, though I would suggest it might have been better to make them a neutral race (not Alliance OR Horde). hahaha... ok, that might have been to difficult a concept, but the pandas themselves think they would rather be neutral!

-Matt
Nevermind, the new sticky has just announced that ALL North American Realms will essentially be PST now. Sunrise on EST servers will be at 5:30am PST. Dailies on EST servers will reset at 3:00am PST. Darkmoon Faire on EST servers will open at 12:00am PST.

Makes me glad I live in PST and play on a PST server. o.O


Wow really? There goes my LFR at 3am, since I am EST and not waiting for 6am.

Anyways, concidering they locked more gear behind rep, and a whole lot of other changes I don't like..I really don't think they DO listen.

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