How to reward 25 man raids for "effort"

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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The pie in the sky solution would be to somehow lessen the logistical burden of running a 25s. Its going to be difficult to find a reward system that is effective without making 25s "real" raiding. (leave whether you believe only 25s is or should be "real" raiding out of this, its not the design goal regardless). Reward systems also reward everyone in the 25s raid, not just the people actually shouldering the logistical burden. There is no particular reason the guy that just shows up to raid needs extra incentive to be in a 25 man.

But, there aren't many ways to do that. About the only thing I can think of is allowing cross-realm current tier raiding (which is something they are reluctant to do) and enhanced in-game recruitment channels (particularly cross-realm). If its not as hard to fill spots, more people may run 25 mans, particularly the less hardcore raids. Casual 25s are virtually extinct.


10 mans are logistically and sometimes actually easier.

25's do not offer sufficient extra reward to overcome this gap.

Therefore raids are moving from 25 to 10 over time.

If they off too much incentive to 25 the movement goes the other way


Except the logistical burden is put on the officers+ and not the actual raiders.


The effect is still essentially the same.

And its really not going to matter, if 25's offer better reward leaders will be pushed into 25 no matter what they actually want because quality raiders will want the better loot, more vanity, whatever.
Was right with my guess, topics so sidetracked now.
The pie in the sky solution would be to somehow lessen the logistical burden of running a 25s. Its going to be difficult to find a reward system that is effective without making 25s "real" raiding. (leave whether you believe only 25s is or should be "real" raiding out of this, its not the design goal regardless). Reward systems also reward everyone in the 25s raid, not just the people actually shouldering the logistical burden. There is no particular reason the guy that just shows up to raid needs extra incentive to be in a 25 man.

But, there aren't many ways to do that. About the only thing I can think of is allowing cross-realm current tier raiding (which is something they are reluctant to do) and enhanced in-game recruitment channels (particularly cross-realm). If its not as hard to fill spots, more people may run 25 mans, particularly the less hardcore raids. Casual 25s are virtually extinct.


DING DING DING DING
11/18/2012 07:20 PMPosted by Postonforums
Was right with my guess, topics so sidetracked now.


It hasn't sidetracked. When you start discussing options about incentives for the raid sizes you will always end up having discussions about the benefits or negatives as it relates to each raid size. As I said previously, the two are linked. What affects one, affects the other.

The whole idea of adding incentive to 25 man makes the topic about 10v25. I have included that in the discussion and remained civil.

This is also the reason so many people are tired of posting in relation to these topics because it basically ends up at the same point and it is an impasse that I do not believe the community will ever get past. The ball is, literally, in Blizzard's Court here and at the end of the day it is up to them to decide how much support and what that support entails for the 25 mans. People need to realise however, that no matter what it ends up being, it will in some way, make the 10 man's "less" attractive and as a consequence, it will have impacts. On both raid sizes.
Yes but how can they offer enough incentive to 25 without it dominating or pushing out 10 man.

Right now we have 6 to 25 as opposed to 2 to 10.

Im guessing it means this wasnt enough.

If we get something like the Asian situation of higher ilevel, I really think that will push 10 man out the door.

But I do think they could give 4 ilevels already counting against valor upgrade without unduly affecting 10's.

as both raid sizes would have the same gear at the end, just 25's would get there a bit quicker.
11/18/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Sarosha
If we get something like the Asian situation of higher ilevel, I really think that will push 10 man out the door.


It'll be interesting to see how it plays out in Asia. I don't see 10 mans dying over there particularly. They'll just pug some folks to do the normal version, maybe not heroic.
i don't understand why people seem to think "10man is easier". logistically they face different problems (25mans have issues with recruiting and maintaining a roster, 10man suffers from a lack of class diversity, leading to difficulty with buffs/loot and class stacking mechanics being impossible).

if you want to do 25man raids, that's the boat you're in as far as i'm concerned. i ran 25man progression oriented raids from around Ulduar in Wrath up until Dragon Soul, and am very happy that 10 and 25 man have the same rewards (in terms of realm firsts, gear being equal and having similar difficulty). if that were to go out the window, i would probably quit playing instead of doing 25man (because the experience of doing it was that awful at the end, when it was impossible to recruit people and a massive burden to even field a competitive raid).

i don't think that it's fair at all to beef up 25man gear again, or make realm first guild achievements only available to 25man. i don't care about cosmetic things, or tools to help you get there (a la easy initial tier gearing, trash drops, patterns, food etc), but i think that you're screwing 10mans if you make 25man better in a fully practical way (better gear, better vanity stuff, and the like).
One look at the front page of my realm's progression shows 3 25 man guilds.

We're doing fine.
You guys already get more loot.

If that's not enough incentive then that just means the populace isn't interested and bottlenecking people into it after changing it already is going to cause more harm than good.
One look at the front page of my realm's progression shows 3 25 man guilds.

We're doing fine.
You guys already get more loot.

If that's not enough incentive then that just means the populace isn't interested and bottlenecking people into it after changing it already is going to cause more harm than good.


Half of the US servers do not have 1 25 man guild. Some food for thought.
Just like in real life, believe it or not, people take the path of least resistance.

The less work they can do, the more likely they are to take that path.
One look at the front page of my realm's progression shows 3 25 man guilds.

We're doing fine.
You guys already get more loot.

If that's not enough incentive then that just means the populace isn't interested and bottlenecking people into it after changing it already is going to cause more harm than good.


Yes, of course, because your singular realm is naturally enough of a representation to make sweeping statements.
i don't understand why people seem to think "10man is easier". logistically they face different problems (25mans have issues with recruiting and maintaining a roster, 10man suffers from a lack of class diversity, leading to difficulty with buffs/loot and class stacking mechanics being impossible).


They've taken steps to make buffs easier than ever to get and never balanced 10m around having all the available buffs anyway.

Your average 25 man guild usually can't take advantage of class stacking mechanics.

Loot.. meh. It's not like loot difficulties don't exist on 25 man. My current guild is pretty evenly split for tier gear, but my past guild was pretty stacked in terms of Vanq and Conq.
Proudmoores the #4 overall Alliance pop server btw =p 25ms exist Sarg too, but we're #3. A 100k pool of players to pick from helps.
main reason 25 raids are in decline because most servers are dead. Everybody is crowding toward bigger and more populated server, just like everything else irl.

Most medium servers don't even have enough competent raiders to form 25 man raids, more incentives aren't going to do jack.

but they'll never open up CRZ for raiding or arena. Too much money to be made from transferring
11/18/2012 08:09 PMPosted by Schwert
One look at the front page of my realm's progression shows 3 25 man guilds.


http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/us/warsong

One look at this server, and the game's dead ;P

But 3/20 is pretty low representation, it really should look more like 6 or 7//20 to where blizzard would feel satisfied.
11/19/2012 12:17 AMPosted by Postonforums
One look at the front page of my realm's progression shows 3 25 man guilds.


http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/us/warsong

One look at this server, and the game's dead ;P


Some top 20 US guild should xfer over there and bring a little much needed love to it.
Being on a high pop server is definitely good for progression (ie: getting Blood Spirit gear for everyone, spirits that wouldn't be on the ah on a dead server). Not too many perks to playing on a low pop, other than BMAH and Pandaria rare farming. I used CRZ to get over a dead PVE server for those rares though, lol. Best of both worlds.
11/19/2012 12:46 AMPosted by Digerati
Being on a high pop server is definitely good for progression (ie: getting Blood Spirit gear for everyone, spirits that wouldn't be on the ah on a dead server). Not too many perks to playing on a low pop, other than BMAH and Pandaria rare farming. I used CRZ to get over a dead PVE server for those rares though, lol. Best of both worlds.


Close knit community was one thing I miss from playing on a very low pop server, when I transfered to medium.
The only thing that will ever work to incentivise the creation of new 25 man guilds (which is what Blizzard presumably wants) is for something to be available in 25 man raiding that is not available in 10 man raiding.

Even if one assumes that say 50% of the raiding population prefers 25 mans and would much rather raid them, more players will inevitably do 10 man raiding because there are more opportunities in that format. It is easier to create a 10 man guild, it is much more likely that a 25 man guild switches to 10 than vice-versa, so the population divide only goes in one direction, and it's much easier to keep a roster capable of raiding week to week in a 10 man guild. The only way those barriers are going to be overcome is if there's a reason to overcome them beyond a simple preference.

The only 25 man guilds out there today that aren't having trouble are those on the front page or two of wowprogress in their region. For everyone else its a week to week struggle to stay afloat and avoid the switch to 10 man. Add something like higher ilvl loot or vanity rewards and the player pool increases significantly and keeping your guild 25 man or even making a new 25 man guild becomes much easier. Some extra feasts or a marginally higher rate of loot acquistion does nothing, especially when loot is already so much easier to come by than at any other point in the game's history with drop rates and coins.

Something that is a bit more telling than just looking at the overall number of 10 vs 25 man guilds is considering how old the top 100 guilds in the US in each format are. The creation of a successful new 25 man raiding guild these days is an incredibly rare event, despite the fact that a significant portion of the raiding population prefers 25 mans as a format. Evidently Blizzard sees the problem as well, and a genuine incentive that actually makes 25 mans worth it despite the extra effort required is the only solution.

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