How to reward 25 man raids for "effort"

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making legendaries only available in 25man is the worst idea i've ever heard. a legendary item is VERY powerful (both in the tier it's gained in, and throughout the entire expansion), and should be a reward for playing well and completing the content and it's goals.

that being said, one single legendary makes a lot of difference in 10man (but it is also hard to farm them and complete a whole bunch of them before the next raid tier starts) where as one legendary isn't as huge in 25man (but you'll make way more of them over time with the way the current legendary structure works out, or has worked out).

if you want to control the amount of legendaries, the best idea is to make them have the end part only able to be completed in Heroic mode (on either raid difficulty). it doesn't have to be the last boss, but blizzard already knows which bosses will be difficult from raid testing and internal testing, you could have the legendary be completed from a combo of Heroic gatekeeper-style boss X and then either heroic or normal of the final boss of the zone.

legendary items are very powerful, and just because you feel like 25man doesn't have enough incentive (it probably doesn't) doesn't mean that you should give 25man the only shot at those items.

sadly, the only way to fairly do it is to give some bottom level perks, or QoL increases for 25man. giving out things that actually help you win races or beat the content just doesn't work at all because Blizzard has long maintained that both formats are viable choices for clearing the content.
making legendaries only available in 25man is the worst idea i've ever heard. a legendary item is VERY powerful (both in the tier it's gained in, and throughout the entire expansion), and should be a reward for playing well and completing the content and it's goals.


If you reward players as a sole consequence of "playing well", then you should allow all players that "play well" to get legendary weapons. For example let's have all players that earn 2200 in 2s PVP to get legendaries. Perhaps you could let these be worked into 5 man dungeon runs (i.e. scenarios). Basically, there needs to be some sort of cutoff and the 10/25 man isn't cutting it.

Maybe they just need to make 10 mans significantly harder. Think OS3D type hard. For every fight. At the moment, not only are they easier, the gear you get from 10 mans is at least even if you count in legendary weapons, and the logistics are easier. I don't see any real reason to stay with 25 man raids unless you enjoy headaches.

And no, removing legendaries in 10 man raiding will not kill 10 man raiding. It may smooth out the raiding populations but it will not kill it.
Titles & Mount drops from full 25m / 25m-H clears only.

No gear inequality, just something cosmetic to show you didn't take the path of least resistance.
what? you clearly don't raid on any sort of scale if you think 10man is less difficult than 25man (on a purely mechanics and numbers level). that's not to say that the other aspects of 10man aren't easier to a degree (fielding a raid etc), but in terms of progression raiding (like first page of wowprogress for a given raidsize/format) it could definitely be argued that 10man is more difficult.

look at how many guilds have cleared each difficulty (HoF and MSV) on heroic, and see that 10man is actually much more difficult to complete the tier (this time around). fights like Shek'zeer, Gara'jal, Spirit Kings, Amber Shaper are/were all immensely hard on 10man, to go in and kill with the minimal amount of gear you have at the start of a raid tier.

also, you failed to notice that i said "playing well AND completing the content and it's goals". it was kind of a segue into what i said later on about requiring Heroic boss kills to make a legendary (to make them more rare, which may not even be a good thing). it's not just about playing well, its also completing the steps of the questline (which in my opinion should take place in Heroic mode raids in some part).

removing legendaries basically tells people who want legendaries that they have to do 25man. believe it or not, maximizing your character is a huge thing to a lot of people (BiS gear all the achievements) and all it takes is for a couple players to leave a 10man raid, and you're screwed. our raid has 10 people in it and that's it. so that's not a very desirable option either.

edit: also this only pertains to the period of time where there's no raidwide buff or debuff and you're basically trying to beat the clock on that. when all that happens, 10man does in fact become easier (they just blow at scaling things combined with nerfs, outside of their initial tuning). but if you're pushing to have a reasonable ranking in the grand scheme of either raid difficulty they have similar enough tuning that "the path of least resistance" argument is flawed.
Titles & Mount drops from full 25m / 25m-H clears only.

No gear inequality, just something cosmetic to show you didn't take the path of least resistance.


Everything from water to the !@#$ flowing through your small intestine right now takes the path of least resistance. Why should there be a reward for putting up with idiots every raid night?
10man isn't the path of least resistance though. that would imply that it's less difficult on a numbers/fundamentals level, which is clearly isn't.
11/19/2012 11:27 AMPosted by Flay
10man isn't the path of least resistance though. that would imply that it's less difficult on a numbers/fundamentals level, which is clearly isn't.


It is, sorry :(
I had quit during ICC,

But wasn't Frostmourne only able to be acquired while in a 25 man group?

Why are some people saying the legendary for 25 man guilds only is going to kill 10 mans? I thought there were 10 man guilds during the end of Wrath.
what? you clearly don't raid on any sort of scale if you think 10man is less difficult than 25man (on a purely mechanics and numbers level). that's not to say that the other aspects of 10man aren't easier to a degree (fielding a raid etc), but in terms of progression raiding (like first page of wowprogress for a given raidsize/format) it could definitely be argued that 10man is more difficult.

look at how many guilds have cleared each difficulty (HoF and MSV) on heroic, and see that 10man is actually much more difficult to complete the tier (this time around). fights like Shek'zeer, Gara'jal, Spirit Kings, Amber Shaper are/were all immensely hard on 10man, to go in and kill with the minimal amount of gear you have at the start of a raid tier.


This argument always gets tossed out as to how 10s and 25s are of equivalent difficulty, but it ignores that most 25man guilds are top level guilds. So at the top of progression (IE clearing the whole thing within a few weeks of it being out), things look much more equal than they really are.

Look at the very first few fights for a better representation of 'average' difficulty. Stone dogs heroic, 750 25man guilds vs 4409 10man. Feng, 573 vs 2803. Beyond this things start getting fuzzy due to the number of 10man guilds vs 25man guilds and the quality thereof.

A more personal example: this Sunday my happy band of baduals wanted to work on 25man elegon normal some more, but we were a few people short, so we did 2 10mans. Our best attempt on 25man was not even close, on 10man one group got it and the other had a 6% wipe with someone dying right at the start of P3 from stupid. (We actually had a lot of wipes from stupid, such as me running back in to tank the boss before the floor came back up)

This was with basically the same people. The people who didn't make it Sunday were actually some of our better DPS/Healers, and a couple of the dps who did show were some of our not-so-goods. One of the 'dps' in the 6% wipe group was a disc priest who went shadow for the first time and one of the tanks in each group was someone's offset, so it's not a matter of "carrying people in 25man". It's just flat out easier in 10man.
This argument always gets tossed out as to how 10s and 25s are of equivalent difficulty, but it ignores that most 25man guilds are top level guilds. So at the top of progression (IE clearing the whole thing within a few weeks of it being out), things look much more equal than they really are.

Look at the very first few fights for a better representation of 'average' difficulty. Stone dogs heroic, 750 25man guilds vs 4409 10man. Feng, 573 vs 2803. Beyond this things start getting fuzzy due to the number of 10man guilds vs 25man guilds and the quality thereof.


Ok lets look at those fights.

Stone Guardians Heroic?
750 25s is 33.22%
4409 10s is 14.99%

Feng Heroic?
573 25s is 25.38%
2807 10s is 9.54%

Do 25man heroes have a wowprogress site that filters out the percentages? Because I have never understood how you can pull those numbers out without noticing the huge differences.

Wowprogress will never be an end all tool for your argument because 10s and 25s are not comparable. The only people who care about 10 v 25 are the people who get beat by a guild raiding a different size and need to make up an excuse so they can feel better about themselves.
This argument always gets tossed out as to how 10s and 25s are of equivalent difficulty, but it ignores that most 25man guilds are top level guilds. So at the top of progression (IE clearing the whole thing within a few weeks of it being out), things look much more equal than they really are.

Look at the very first few fights for a better representation of 'average' difficulty. Stone dogs heroic, 750 25man guilds vs 4409 10man. Feng, 573 vs 2803. Beyond this things start getting fuzzy due to the number of 10man guilds vs 25man guilds and the quality thereof.


Ok lets look at those fights.

Stone Guardians Heroic?
750 25s is 33.22%
4409 10s is 14.99%

Feng Heroic?
573 25s is 25.38%
2807 10s is 9.54%

Do 25man heroes have a wowprogress site that filters out the percentages? Because I have never understood how you can pull those numbers out without noticing the huge differences.

Wowprogress will never be an end all tool for your argument because 10s and 25s are not comparable. The only people who care about 10 v 25 are the people who get beat by a guild raiding a different size and need to make up an excuse so they can feel better about themselves.


http://imgur.com/yOqzr
These threads always turn out the same. The 10 man crowd claims their mode is the same (and in some really hilarious situations, harder) while the people who run and have experience in both formats tell you 25 is harder. The emphasis really needs to be up on the "er" though, no one is saying 10 man heroic is super easy, 25 man is just harder.

EDIT: And this is referring strictly to the overall process of both.

edit: also this only pertains to the period of time where there's no raidwide buff or debuff and you're basically trying to beat the clock on that. when all that happens, 10man does in fact become easier (they just blow at scaling things combined with nerfs, outside of their initial tuning). but if you're pushing to have a reasonable ranking in the grand scheme of either raid difficulty they have similar enough tuning that "the path of least resistance" argument is flawed.


I'm not sure I follow your logic. You are saying 10 man starts off the same (or harder) than 25s but if you nerf them both by exactly the same amount 10 man becomes easier? #idungetit.
IMO, the problem is the constant recruiting. Make that easier, give 25 man guilds grantable free server transfers earned once/twice a month.
11/19/2012 12:04 PMPosted by Hackers
IMO, the problem is the constant recruiting. Make that easier, give 25 man guilds grantable free server transfers earned once/twice a month.


This would go a long away towards helping us without hurting 10 man raiders at all. At least an option to trial players before they transfer X amount of times per month.
11/19/2012 11:54 AMPosted by Tyrnyx
Do 25man heroes have a wowprogress site that filters out the percentages? Because I have never understood how you can pull those numbers out without noticing the huge differences.


Looking at what the top people in the world do is never a good basis for "how hard is something". 41 of the top 100 guilds in the world are straight 25man, 50 if you include ones that say "10/25" on wowprogress. Early tier numbers always show that "10s and 25s are equal or 10s are harder" because "a higher percentage of 25s kill it".

Its not rocket science to figure out if most of the best players in the world are killing stuff on 25, then early on things look easier on 25. It's the equivalent of someone claiming a raid is too easy because the best players in the world killed it the first week.

11/19/2012 11:54 AMPosted by Tyrnyx
Wowprogress will never be an end all tool for your argument because 10s and 25s are not comparable. The only people who care about 10 v 25 are the people who get beat by a guild raiding a different size and need to make up an excuse so they can feel better about themselves.


I agree, and it's almost invariably 10s saying their format is harder and use wowprogress to back it up.

Anyone who uses anecdotal evidence (IE, I raid both formats and believe blah blah blah) says 25s are both harder logistically and fundamentally. I've never seen someone say "I regularly raid both formats and think generally 10s are harder". Sure, there are sometimes a couple fights that are harder on 10, but in general? Nope, and there ALWAYS are several fights that are easier on 10.

Which back on topic, is why 25s are currently dying out from the general raiding population. You can't have a format be both harder to set up AND be harder to win for the exact same rewards. Preferring 25s only takes you so far.

With valor point upgrades available, it opens the door for a way to have 10s still be on an equivalent footing, but give 25s 'better' rewards, even if that reward is only "less time farming valor points". Considering how much of a pain farming valor points is this tier, that's not insignificant.
11/19/2012 12:10 PMPosted by Ninjablaze
IMO, the problem is the constant recruiting. Make that easier, give 25 man guilds grantable free server transfers earned once/twice a month.


This would go a long away towards helping us without hurting 10 man raiders at all. At least an option to trial players before they transfer X amount of times per month.


This is a fair option.

I really think crossrealm raiding earlier would help too as it would allow people to trial, even a limited crossrealm raiding.

Like 10 man gets 1 crossrealm and 25 gets 3.

This would allow trials without allowing stacking of too many offserver people to server first.
11/19/2012 11:24 AMPosted by Flay
what? you clearly don't raid on any sort of scale if you think 10man is less difficult than 25man (on a purely mechanics and numbers level). that's not to say that the other aspects of 10man aren't easier to a degree (fielding a raid etc), but in terms of progression raiding (like first page of wowprogress for a given raidsize/format) it could definitely be argued that 10man is more difficult.

Mechanics and 'personal responsibility' are a red herring when discussing the difference. Execution of mechanics are close enough to discount in either format. The real difference, at the progression level you're alluding to, is that you need 15 extra people to execute at the same level to get a kill. This "we had 8 people dead and still killed it" argument from 10M raiders is cute and may apply to Halfus, but you're not getting past anything difficult during progression with a DPS or healer dead.

You see, raiding is a team game. Focusing on individual accomplishment is silly in that context. In their vanity to prove they could make "challenging" 10M content, Blizzard forgot that a basic tenet of MMOs is that scale matters. People, social organization and complexity, all of that stuff... that's the real tricky part, not pressing your buttons at the right time.

As for the other fallacious argument regarding statistics of successful 10M on wowprogress etc., that's just as easily a testament to the "path of least resistance" effect that Blizzard itself has described. There are a ton more 10 mans, for a variety of reasons, but the most significant being they are simply easier to organize. There isn't enough data to properly interpret the Paragon-effect on 10M and how much better they were than any of their 10M peers, but I'm sure that won't stop people. Draw your own conclusions, I don't need to further inflame the debate.

On a semi-related note, shame on Blizzard for going down this path for so long and fostering a system that is so divisive to its community. Simple things, such as separate realm achievements (I'm sure it was very annoying for 10M guilds to have realm firsts sniped by a 25M guild who "dropped down" with a superior comp). would have gone a long way early on, but I think they were too busy patting themselves on the back to realize what was going on. Actually, scratch that, I don't even fully trust that this whole thing wasn't intended, with the long-term goal being a unified raid size across the three difficulties.
11/19/2012 12:28 PMPosted by Vulgrym
what? you clearly don't raid on any sort of scale if you think 10man is less difficult than 25man (on a purely mechanics and numbers level). that's not to say that the other aspects of 10man aren't easier to a degree (fielding a raid etc), but in terms of progression raiding (like first page of wowprogress for a given raidsize/format) it could definitely be argued that 10man is more difficult.

Mechanics and 'personal responsibility' are a red herring when discussing the difference. Execution of mechanics are close enough to discount in either format. The real difference, at the progression level you're alluding to, is that you need 15 extra people to execute at the same level to get a kill. This "we had 8 people dead and still killed it" argument from 10M raiders is cute and may apply to Halfus, but you're not getting past anything difficult during progression with a DPS or healer dead.

You see, raiding is a team game. Focusing on individual accomplishment is silly in that context. In their vanity to prove they could make "challenging" 10M content, Blizzard forgot that a basic tenet of MMOs is that scale matters. People, social organization and complexity, all of that stuff... that's the real tricky part, not pressing your buttons at the right time.

As for the other fallacious argument regarding statistics of successful 10M on wowprogress etc., that's just as easily a testament to the "path of least resistance" effect that Blizzard itself has described. There are a ton more 10 mans, for a variety of reasons, but the most significant being they are simply easier to organize. There isn't enough data to properly interpret the Paragon-effect on 10M and how much better they were than any of their 10M peers, but I'm sure that won't stop people. Draw your own conclusions, I don't need to further inflame the debate.

On a semi-related note, shame on Blizzard for going down this path for so long and fostering a system that is so divisive to its community. Simple things, such as separate realm achievements (I'm sure it was very annoying for 10M guilds to have realm firsts sniped by a 25M guild who "dropped down" with a superior comp). would have gone a long way early on, but I think they were too busy patting themselves on the back to realize what was going on. Actually, scratch that, I don't even fully trust that this whole thing wasn't intended, with the long-term goal being a unified raid size across the three difficulties.


I just watched Apex go into the last phase of Heroic Shekzeer with 5 people dead and no b reses left, they wiped at ~20m hp.
11/19/2012 12:33 PMPosted by Xiic
I just watched Apex go into the last phase of Heroic Shekzeer with 5 people dead and no b reses left, they wiped at ~20m hp.


Apex from EU-Al'Akir? The ones who got 9th world kill of that boss? Yep, good yardstick for difficulty measurement, I'm sure they're very representative.
11/19/2012 12:40 PMPosted by Helagoth
I just watched Apex go into the last phase of Heroic Shekzeer with 5 people dead and no b reses left, they wiped at ~20m hp.


Apex from EU-Al'Akir? The ones who got 9th world kill of that boss? Yep, good yardstick for difficulty measurement, I'm sure they're very representative.


Oh sorry, are we supposed to measure difficulty by your guild? The point is, hard content is very doable with people down in 25 man and it makes me giggle when people claim it isnt. Hell, premonition's extremely early heroic omnomtron kill was with 1 tank and maybe 8-10 people left for the last 2 minutes of the fight.

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