Where did Tyrande need Mal's help?

Story Forum
Prev 1 2 3 5 Next


That's fine and dandy.

But it wasn't his short story. It was Tyrande's.

I know, I know, they want us to think of Malfurion and Tyrande as dual leaders, but most players do not consider it anything of the sort. I don't think I've heard anyone (especially not recently) claim that Tyrande needed to be saved by Malfurion, just that he took spotlight in something that otherwise shouldn't have involved him.

A lot of people will have different opinions on this matter, so there will be contention. Most Night elf players dislike Malfurion entirely, and would rather he not take prominence in that story whatsoever.

There's also the matter of Tyrande being largely irrelevant up until Cata and then she gets her own short story, only for Malfurion to hog it. We interact with Malfurion during Cata questing more than Tyrande. People didn't want more Malfurion, they wanted Tyrande - and it took them until MOP to get her out in the field again, with mixed results.
WELL THEN. If we are going by that reasoning than the story should have been called "Shandris:" instead because three of the five pages of the story were solely dedicated to her.

And once again Malfurion didn't take the spotlight. He had about two or three paragraphs where he did anything besides lament with Tyrande about the situation.

I also don't see where the hate on Malfurion comes from. Hes played a prominent role in Night Elf lore since the beginning. Why suddenly hate him now?

Tyrande wasn't the only one who was irrelevant. Many of the faction leaders until recently have only sat in their throne rooms doing nothing outside of the Knaack and Goldenverse.


To be honest, we shouldn't be blaming Malfurion, we should be blaming Blizzard.

The first thing that we all have to remember in discussing this sort of thing is that Blizzard controls the stories. They aren't handed a list of situations and asked to say what the characters would do with a given fact pattern, they create the fact pattern, and sometimes they've got an agenda for making that fact pattern.

Let me ask you this: How much sense does it realistically make that the Twilight's Hammer would be able to send an army into Hyjal, with no clear lines of getting there?

The other zones all make some sense, but this one is a logistical puzzle. It was bad enough that the Twilight's Hammer suddenly had a growth rate that puts China to shame, but they suddenly snuck an army into Hyjal? An army large enough to seriously threaten the dragonflights and the defenders of Hyjal? I mean, it feels like we just showed up after a war had been raging for two years, especially given that they managed to build this massive temple in a lake of lava all of the sudden. (Or did we just miss that for ten-thousand years?)

Well, when you consider one thing, it does make sense: forcing the Cenarion Circle to fight the Twilights and a bunch of recycled molten core bosses keeps the Circle out of Ashenvale, making them neutral, and keeping Malfurion, Cenarius, and the Ancients out of the fight... and/or neutral and ambivalent themselves. Whew! Bit a bullet there!

The issue is that Malfurion is a Night Elf, and the world's most powerful druid. He should care about a hostile collection of nations vowing to wipe his people off of Kalimdor as they desecrate the forests. We hate him because he doesn't - because he was the instrument of Blizzard's contrived means of allowing the Horde to (somewhat) sensically make gains in Ashenvale.


As for Tyrande's short story, this is also part of the reason for why injecting Malfurion was so irksome - Blizzard wants us to believe that he's wise beyond reproach because he's wise beyond reproach (this is how Blizzard tends to handle politics in their games anyhow), but that's certainly not all of it. First she goes alone, as though she had to sneak out without his permission, and then he bails her out. I feel like we're watching the Lion King when Simba goes to the Elephant Graveyard, only Tyrande is supposed to be the leader of her people, and the leader short stories are supposed to give us a reason to like these people. Everybody else does something consequential, getting through a tough situation or resolving a difficult dispute. Tyrande doesn't even look like she belongs at the table.

This is more infuriating when, again, we remember that Blizzard consciously picked this scenario, when we were screaming at the time for more clarification about what the Night Elves were going to do about the Horde, or whether the circle actually gave a crap about what was going on.


Edit: One more thing.

If you're under the delusion that we're angry about not getting enough lore, you haven't been paying attention. We've been swamped in lore. The problem has been that it's all BAD lore, which leaves people like me in the position of envying the Draenei for not getting attention period.

At least they still have their respect!
12/04/2012 04:11 PMPosted by Kyalin
Let me ask you this: How much sense does it realistically make that the Twilight's Hammer would be able to send an army into Hyjal, with no clear lines of getting there?


Not just an army, but an entire training ground.
12/04/2012 04:06 PMPosted by Pyronaptor
Not to mention it was a changed title, it originally just had Tyrande's name.


Malfurion really should not have been there on Feathermoon isle. It just seemed too forced, to me. It should have just been Tyrande fighting.

Ultimately, I think it's was a false assessment on my part that Malfurion hogged the story. However he was given prominence where Night elf players felt he did not have any. Malfurion, in a sense, represents what is the problem with Night elves in Cataclysm - in that much of their power structure was shown to be neutral despite the tumultuous events and the threats they directly faced. When stuff is made neutral from previously exclusive factions, then it feels less like it's "yours". It's homogenized. It's not unique.

So, he didn't hog it. But we didn't see enough Tyrande. I think that's why people disliked it.
12/04/2012 04:17 PMPosted by Tessa
Let me ask you this: How much sense does it realistically make that the Twilight's Hammer would be able to send an army into Hyjal, with no clear lines of getting there?


Not just an army, but an entire training ground.


Yup.

I mean... was it like the War of the Worlds Remake? Did they bury the massive training ground, temple and lava setup, and the massive army in Hyjal thousands of years ago?

How did it all get there!?
I would assume Ragnaros was able to allow his realm of fire to spill out into Hyjal, like you see in the Sulfuron spire, and the Twilight Cultists came in that way or through other portals. You will notice that most of the Twilight's power is adjacent to the spire.
12/04/2012 04:22 PMPosted by Mordstreich
I would assume Ragnaros was able to allow his realm of fire to spill out into Hyjal, like you see in the Sulfuron spire, and the Twilight Cultists came in that way or through other portals. You will notice that most of the Twilight's power is adjacent to the spire.


So why not just make it spill out into the well itself? That would be much easier than trying to take your implausibly delivered army up the mountain.
12/04/2012 04:22 PMPosted by Mordstreich
I would assume Ragnaros was able to allow his realm of fire to spill out into Hyjal, like you see in the Sulfuron spire, and the Twilight Cultists came in that way or through other portals. You will notice that most of the Twilight's power is adjacent to the spire.


The main problem still lies with the fact that the Twilight's Hammer were still pretty weak villains.
Probably because they couldn't for whatever reason.
12/04/2012 04:24 PMPosted by Mordstreich
Probably because they couldn't for whatever reason.


Well, what reason? If you just got done telling me that they could pop in wherever they felt like, why wouldn't they? I mean, if they can summon massive spires at the drop of a hat, why not land one on top of Orgrimmar for giggles?
How else does an army enter a country? When it's defenses are weakest. This applies to Hyjal as well. At the time Deathwing had just resurfaced. The world was drastically changing and many of the defenders of Azeroth were having trouble just keeping things under control. I also don't think the temple was built by cultists but it was actually a biproduct of Ragnaros being summoned to the mortal plane.

At the time the Cenarion Circle and the Ancients realised there were far more important things to be dealing with than a few Orcs encroaching on Night Elf lands. It's still too soon to tell but I have a feeling that the ancients will have a hand in the conflict to come. Needless to say Garrosh's armies were not the main issue at hand.

It's unfortunate that you misunderstand the story so much but what you said really isn't very well founded seeing as Tyrande did plenty in her story and expecting the same in every story is a bit redundant. Now that Malfurion is back the throne is just as much his as it is Tyrande's.

There are plenty of instances where major Horde figures have gone neutral. Malfurion isn't the first.
12/04/2012 04:17 PMPosted by Mordstreich
Malfurion, in a sense, represents what is the problem with Night elves in Cataclysm - in that much of their power structure was shown to be neutral despite the tumultuous events and the threats they directly faced. When stuff is made neutral from previously exclusive factions, then it feels less like it's "yours". It's homogenized. It's not unique.


Yep. That and mages. The highborne were reintroduced to the race because the night elves needed their help. What did they even do?
How else does an army enter a country? When it's defenses are weakest. This applies to Hyjal as well. At the time Deathwing had just resurfaced. The world was drastically changing and many of the defenders of Azeroth were having trouble just keeping things under control. I also don't think the temple was built by cultists but it was actually a biproduct of Ragnaros being summoned to the mortal plane.

At the time the Cenarion Circle and the Ancients realised there were far more important things to be dealing with than a few Orcs encroaching on Night Elf lands. It's still too soon to tell but I have a feeling that the ancients will have a hand in the conflict to come. Needless to say Garrosh's armies were not the main issue at hand.

It's unfortunate that you misunderstand the story so much but what you said really isn't very well founded seeing as Tyrande did plenty in her story and expecting the same in every story is a bit redundant. Now that Malfurion is back the throne is just as much his as it is Tyrande's.

There are plenty of instances where major Horde figures have gone neutral. Malfurion isn't the first.


I'm not sure what you're really going on about in your second paragraph there, but then, that is a rather familiar tactic. Back in High School when I was in Speech and Debate, we'd refer to that as a BS conclusion, where the opposing team just said "we won, you lost" without explaining why.

As for your first two, there remains no supply line. For an army of that size, if they marched it through Ashenvale, Felwood, Winterspring, and finally into Hyjal, someone would notice. So we're back to this "I can summon armies on your head" nonsense, which leads to all sorts of issues unless there are limiting factors, which don't appear to be in play.
12/04/2012 04:26 PMPosted by Royceweiss
At the time the Cenarion Circle and the Ancients realised there were far more important things to be dealing with than a few Orcs encroaching on Night Elf lands.


Not just a few Orcs, the entire combined might of the Kalimdor Horde, Magnataur, and Protodrakes. This was a direct, and very serious threat to the Night elves.

Let's not forget that most of the Cenarion Circle is comprised of Night elves. Malfurion expects Night elves to answer the clarion call while Horde nip at their heels and then he has the gall to deny them immortality despite the fact that they are more or less THE guardians of the World Tree.

12/04/2012 04:26 PMPosted by Royceweiss
It's unfortunate that you misunderstand the story so much but what you said really isn't very well founded


I didn't misunderstand anything. Not much of what I said wasn't well founded, it was based in opinion, take your pretentiousness elsewhere.

12/04/2012 04:26 PMPosted by Royceweiss
Now that Malfurion is back the throne is just as much his as it is Tyrande's.


It's not, and it shouldn't be. He can go lead the Cenarion Circle and sit on his high horse for the rest of the damn game.

12/04/2012 04:26 PMPosted by Royceweiss
Tyrande did plenty in her story


Oh yeah, I was on the edge of my seat when she put on that armor! And when she casted moonfire, that one time! Wowee-kazowie!
The Twilight Cult isn't just some organization that shows off their pride everywhere. Many of the members keep what they are hidden (Benedictus). Why would they need to go through Feralas? It's clear that their staging area was the gorge. They went through Ashenvale (most likely in disguise) and then Felwood to Winterspring. From there they most likely summoned and created Ascendants with the help of Deathwing's convenient distraction. Heck they could have even had mages with which they summoned in legions of their cultmates.

Also weren't you talking about quitting a couple months ago? I vaguely remember a post on the general forums about that.
At the time the Cenarion Circle and the Ancients realised there were far more important things to be dealing with than a few Orcs encroaching on Night Elf lands.


Not just a few Orcs, the entire combined might of the Kalimdor Horde, Magnataur, and Protodrakes. This was a direct, and very serious threat to the Night elves.

Let's not forget that most of the Cenarion Circle is comprised of Night elves. Malfurion expects Night elves to answer the clarion call while Horde nip at their heels and then he has the gall to deny them immortality despite the fact that they are more or less THE guardians of the World Tree.

It's unfortunate that you misunderstand the story so much but what you said really isn't very well founded


I didn't misunderstand anything. Not much of what I said wasn't well founded, it was based in opinion, take your pretentiousness elsewhere.

Now that Malfurion is back the throne is just as much his as it is Tyrande's.


It's not, and it shouldn't be. He can go lead the Cenarion Circle and sit on his high horse for the rest of the damn game.

Tyrande did plenty in her story


Oh yeah, I was on the edge of my seat when she put on that armor! And when she casted moonfire, that one time! Wowee-kazowie!
Let's not turn this into a mudslinging match.

Hmm.. The choice between saving a race and letting the whole world burn.. Tough one.

Yeah you are right. It's not like Malfurion did anything during the war of the ancients.. Not like we should be greatful or anything..

Obviously you people are too consumed by your love for nitpicking. I give up.
The Twilight Cult isn't just some organization that shows off their pride everywhere. Many of the members keep what they are hidden (Benedictus). Why would they need to go through Feralas? It's clear that their staging area was the gorge. They went through Ashenvale (most likely in disguise) and then Felwood to Winterspring. From there they most likely summoned and created Ascendants with the help of Deathwing's convenient distraction. Heck they could have even had mages with which they summoned in legions of their cultmates.

Also weren't you talking about quitting a couple months ago? I vaguely remember a post on the general forums about that.


So, what you're telling me is that the army scaled those sheer cliffs overlooking Ashenvale to get to Hyjal?

Without being noticed by either the Alliance or the Horde as they went through Ashenvale? Before that the barrens or Azshara?

Edit: Now, I did just realize that instead of saying Felwood, I said Feralas. I've since corrected the error, but despite it, your argument still makes little sense.


As for the general forum post, if you actually read it, you would have noticed that my cutoff date is in May, when I finish graduate school. May isn't here yet.
Makes perfect sense to me. I could have sworn that I said some thing about going through Ashenvale undercover? Ah well. They could have also flew in discreetly. There are many possibilities. Use your imagination.
12/04/2012 04:44 PMPosted by Royceweiss
Let's not turn this into a mudslinging match.


You're the one who attempted to insult my intelligence under some false sense of higher understanding.

12/04/2012 04:44 PMPosted by Royceweiss
Hmm.. The choice between saving a race and letting the whole world burn.. Tough one.


I'm not saying he didn't make a good choice, but to say that the Night elves defending themselves did not have merit is absurd. That is where I said he expects people to live up to his impossibly high ideals.

12/04/2012 04:44 PMPosted by Royceweiss
Yeah you are right. It's not like Malfurion did anything during the war of the ancients.. Not like we should be greatful or anything..


I don't see what the War of the Ancients has to do with now. You know who also helped out during the War of the Ancients? Illidan, and the Night elf people reviled him, as did his own brother.

Once again, let's not forget that the entire crux of this issue was that people wanted to see more Tyrande and not Malfurion, maybe you are fine with how that turned out. Maybe you like Malfurion, that's great for you. But some of us wanted to see Tyrande, the ones who disliked the way the story went.

As it turns out, most people did not like Malfurion. Is it perhaps because he's not as well developed? Is it because of the reasons I stated above? Whatever the reason, their dislike of them leads them to believe he took up more room than necessary. When technically Shandris took more room, but in the process Shandris was at least developed.

And the entire basis of your argument was that people were asserting that Tyrande *needed* to be helped, and no one said that until Kyalin showed up. No one implied it.

Obviously you people are too blinded by your love for nitpicking. I give up.


It's so hard discussing things with people who have differing opinions :(
Let's not turn this into a mudslinging match.


You're the one who attempted to insult my intelligence under some false sense of higher understanding.

Hmm.. The choice between saving a race and letting the whole world burn.. Tough one.


I'm not saying he didn't make a good choice, but to say that the Night elves defending themselves did not have merit is absurd. That is where I said he expects people to live up to his impossibly high ideals.

Yeah you are right. It's not like Malfurion did anything during the war of the ancients.. Not like we should be greatful or anything..


I don't see what the War of the Ancients has to do with now. You know who also helped out during the War of the Ancients? Illidan, and the Night elf people reviled him, as did his own brother.

Once again, let's not forget that the entire crux of this issue was that people wanted to see more Tyrande and not Malfurion, maybe you are fine with how that turned out. Maybe you like Malfurion, that's great for you. But some of us wanted to see Tyrande, the ones who disliked the way the story went.

As it turns out, most people did not like Malfurion. Is it perhaps because he's not as well developed? Is it because of the reasons I stated above? Whatever the reason, their dislike of them leads them to believe he took up more room than necessary. When technically Shandris took more room, but in the process Shandris was at least developed.

And the entire basis of your argument was that people were asserting that Tyrande *needed* to be helped, and no one said that until Kyalin showed up. No one implied it.

Obviously you people are too blinded by your love for nitpicking. I give up.


It's so hard discussing things with people who have differing opinions :(
I was talking to Kyalin when I said that and I wasn't insulting anyones intelligence. I'm sorry you felt that way.

I would continue but you people are incredibly difficult to talk to. I'm just editing my posts for when this thread gets archived.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum