State of Elemental PVP

Battlegrounds
I mainly play Elemental shaman in RBGs and normal BGs. I have dabbled in Arena and Ele is a blast at extremely low ratings in the gene puddle. However my concern is with Ele and what I feel their niche is. While my concerns for the spec can be applied to arena and normal BGs; I would like to focus on Rated BGs.

Realizations
*I do realize that not all specs are suppose to be viable in all aspects (which with the new system is utter bull).

*I do realize that resto shaman is the apparently intended "shaman PVP spec". I keep a resto set and do enjoy healing with my shaman.

*I also realize enh has moderate success in arena while ele has moderate success in RBGs.

*I also realize that Ele offers wonderful support (totems and off healing) and our cleave dmg with chainlightning and magma totem is pretty nasty. During node capturing matches I can keep the flag from being capped with simple magma/cap totems and EQ while maintaining really good dmg.

Concerns
*Glyphs:
-Unleashed lightning at first glance appears manditory however it only applies to lightningbolt. PVP is fast paced and unless you are at a node the battlefield is constantly moving and shifting. The damage of lightning bolt is so subpar that the cast time almost negates any benefit the glyph would have. I am constantly finding myself placing something more useful in it's place. The longer cast time also allows for players to lock you out of all dmg making you go from hardly any damage to no damage at all.

-ghost wolf glyph is mandatory for any rating over 1700 or any team that actually realizes OMG they have an Ele shaman. You will literally be running for half the match. This should be baseline and the glyph should allow you to remove snares when you shift. This would give some mobility but not be over the top because we can only shift from caster to wolf and back and not cheetah>bear>cat>cheetah.

-Flameshock flyph I love for PVE however I would like to see it add dispel protection for the shaman. This would make the glyph actually worth taking in PVP and force the player to choose between glyphs. I will get into flameshock issues more further down.

*Survivability
Ele has very poor survivability when focused. Hex/thunderstorm/windshear/grounding/tier1-2 talents are the only true defenses that an Ele shaman has. Buffing talents would also buff Resto making it extremely unlikely to happen. For arguements sake lets look at an Ele def CD's. TS (24sec CD) for melee/ Astral shift 6 sec (2 min CD)/Windshear 1 target 3 sec lock out (12sec CD)/Hex 8 sec 1 target (1 min CD). You can drop healing totems that heal for 12-15k a tick.
I realize that several other classes lost innate abilities with the new talent system (yes I am giving you a nod rogues) and those are probably NOT coming back. My concern is that as an ele shaman if you get focused in group play "our niche" we are useless. It becomes a game of sit on the shaman like in 2s,3s,5s. We have a mediocre gap creater with very little dmg absorption.
How this is going to be fixed is a very good question, without a very clear answer without buffing resto in the process. One option is to buff TS to give us a temp dmg reduction upon casting. Another option could be to make lightning shield stacks create dmg reduction. every stack of LS could give X% dmg reduction up to 7 stack. Just make it where the stacks fall off after a period of time so Ele shamans arent running around with perma X% dmg reduction.
The soon to be live change to totems being spells and effected by silence effects is going to cripple ele shamans which is already a 4 star in difficulty will make it a 5 star and perhaps the most difficult class to play in a PVP setting. Gettng silenced by a melee class and unable to drop earthgrab and cap to create space is going to be utterly atrocious. It will literally turn ele into the first target focused in RBGs. Death grip>silence>dead.
*Damage Concerns
I love elemental dmg. I usually run with chainlightning glyph and it is tremendous; however there are some areas that gimp elemental shamans.
-Flameshock is dispellable at no cost to the dispeller and an extremely high cost to the shaman. Want to cripple an Ele? Dispel flameshock. No lavablast so back to chainlightning until it comes off CD. 6 sec CD for flameshock 8 sec CD for dispell. Cast flameshock, it gets dispelled. Flameshock comes of CD, dispell has 2 sec left. Cast Flameshock 1.5 sec cast, dispell has 0.5 sec left. start casting lavaburst 1.3 sec cast, nope dispell of CD and Flameshock dispelled. Lets not even talk about Ascendance. Flameshock is the first thing dispelled followed bu you being chain cc'd.
This has been a problem for other classes for a very long time now that have ALL BEEN FIXED (yes destro locks I am giving you a nod). We HAD dispell protection and it was removed?
Solution at a minimum give the flameshock glyph which isnt really used in PVP and added effect of dispell protection or bring back the old flameshock debuff of 90% haste. I would LOVE to see it baseline for Ele that dispelling Flameshock causes the shock to erupt spreading flameshock to ALL targets in X radius and taking Flameshock dmg. Take the worthless lava beam (Does ANYBODY use this) and make it spread Flameshock to targets it hits.

-Ascendance is one of my favorite spells in the game for both ele and resto (healing tide being a close second for resto). However for Ele to actually use this you need the Resto 4pc
or you will be chain silenced and lose all of your burst. I understand that timing of CD's is important and it should be a decision being made off of risk vs reward.

Solution. Make the decreased TS CD baseline and make the 4 pc Ele make up immune to silence effects during Ascendance. This would leave us open to CC that could be dispelled or interrupted.

I really hope that this came accross as constructive and not hypocritical or belittling. I am open to all constructive feed back available. If you are wondering why I placed this here instead of the shaman forums. It was recently brought to my attention that a certain someone does not frequent class forums only the PVP PVE forums. With this in mind I have brought my concerns here in an attempt to make them seen and hopefull addressed.
shameless bumb
Once again Ele being pushed to the bottom of the pile
I played ele in S10 at a 2k level in rbg and 1800 in arenas.

At the time, I was discouraged by how quickly I was out of mana all the time. I also had to hard cast quite a bit, which means easy interruption and silence by melee. It was also difficult to get people off me because Thunderstorm is very terrain-dependent and we have limited defensive cooldowns to use.

Ideally I want to see our shields combined so we are always regenerating mana and won't lose our Fulminate stacks.

We need silence protection and better defenses.
Apparently a certain someone doesn't think ele or enh shamans ever get silenced, or so they tweeted recently.
Some constructive feed back from other classes would be nice.
Seems like everyone is doing what they usually do with Ele shaman complaints...ignore them and they will just fade away.
Ele shamans are a must on any team.

Edit:

Just my own 2 cents from RBGS / Randoms / General

Ele shamans are an absolutely enourmous threat. If one is momentarily allowed to freecast they will pump out nightmarish dps. I make it my business to seek them out and put pressure on.
We are a HUGE threat when left alone. The key is ALONE. The problem is that everyone knows this. The major concern is we can be shut out of damage so quickly and for an extended period of time and if we are focused its a trip to the GY because we have no def CDs except tier talents that will not be buffed because of Resto.
To be honest, I agree with most everything you've stated.

One thing I love about this post is how it sums up perfectly and concisely, my discontent for the new 1 talent tree fits all thing. While I liked it at first, I've been recently thinking (like you, clearly) that it's gonna make it a lot harder to change defensive, cc mechanics without breaking the already fragile healing classes in the game.

Playing a feral druid, I definitely see your concerns on a regular basis. Though I haven't done rbg's in mop, I do find it extremely easy to effectively cc an ele shaman, especially 1v1. Having the 13yrd-range charge/kick move makes it super easy to interupt whenever I need, especially having the passive movement speed druids do (especially when trolling with feline swiftness talent - 15% more passive movement speed) coupled with the two low-cd sprints I have (three if I were worgen) and being un-slowable/rootable. Another huge issue I have seen is the shear amount of HoJ like abilities that almost every class has access to. I say this because with incarnation and druid HoJ, I can stun pretty much whoever I want, whenever I feel like it. All this on top of good DoT dmg and decent burst, I feel like I can relate to what your saying, but not on the bad end of the equation.

Overall, a player with good mobility, skilled application of his/her kick, and decent cc potential really (imo) should be able to single-handedly shut down and elemental shaman without too much trouble.

All that aside, I have also had so recent experience playing a shadow priest and I can tell you that you're 100% right about the dispel thing. Mass dispel just destroys any burst potential ele has against me. Granted the cooldown is 15 sec on it, but I still have dispersion, silence, fear, psyfiend-fear and 3-sec stun. Yeah, when rotating these, I don't lose to shamans.

As you may be able to tell, most of this is coming from an arena, regular bg's or a 1v1 perspective, but you asked for another class opinion so I thought I'd offer something!
To be honest, I agree with most everything you've stated.

One thing I love about this post is how it sums up perfectly and concisely, my discontent for the new 1 talent tree fits all thing. While I liked it at first, I've been recently thinking (like you, clearly) that it's gonna make it a lot harder to change defensive, cc mechanics without breaking the already fragile healing classes in the game.

Playing a feral druid, I definitely see your concerns on a regular basis. Though I haven't done rbg's in mop, I do find it extremely easy to effectively cc an ele shaman, especially 1v1. Having the 13yrd-range charge/kick move makes it super easy to interupt whenever I need, especially having the passive movement speed druids do (especially when trolling with feline swiftness talent - 15% more passive movement speed) coupled with the two low-cd sprints I have (three if I were worgen) and being un-slowable/rootable. Another huge issue I have seen is the shear amount of HoJ like abilities that almost every class has access to. I say this because with incarnation and druid HoJ, I can stun pretty much whoever I want, whenever I feel like it. All this on top of good DoT dmg and decent burst, I feel like I can relate to what your saying, but not on the bad end of the equation.

Overall, a player with good mobility, skilled application of his/her kick, and decent cc potential really (imo) should be able to single-handedly shut down and elemental shaman without too much trouble.

All that aside, I have also had so recent experience playing a shadow priest and I can tell you that you're 100% right about the dispel thing. Mass dispel just destroys any burst potential ele has against me. Granted the cooldown is 15 sec on it, but I still have dispersion, silence, fear, psyfiend-fear and 3-sec stun. Yeah, when rotating these, I don't lose to shamans.

As you may be able to tell, most of this is coming from an arena, regular bg's or a 1v1 perspective, but you asked for another class opinion so I thought I'd offer something!

This is exactly what I am looking for. The only way ELle is going to get fixed is if people state there is a problem. The problem is that WHY would ANYONE complain that a spec is underpowered. That would mean instead of having to ignore them or expect a free kill they have to actually worry about that class. Right now the only threat I am is in EOTS at the flag or AB at LM.
Thanks again for helping out. And to make things clear, I dont want everyone to come in and say Ele i weak unless you actually think so. Please feel free to challenge this so I can make my point heard.
One thing i hate about us Shaman is our Elemental Schools,

Nature and Fire.

It should be Nature, Fire and Water.

And put the healing Surge in Water school.

That way if we get silenced on a heal, we can damage.
If we get silenced on Lightning bolt, we can heal.

Fire doesnt really matter since Lava burst have a high cooldown, so unless you have an instant proc, you will be out of silence before the cooldown is over.
I don't really mind being an underdog, but atleast let me play.

The silence is out of control.

We are weak defensively, why make us suceptible to lose our offense so easily.
Always felt like any melee on me with even a minimal amount of skill would slaughter me. Makes for an extremely frustrating spec to play in BGs imo. The most helpless 1v1 encounter that I have experienced in the game is being elemental with a feral just beating me like a drum.

I really think they should remove the shared CD for all shocks for elemental. This would greatly increase survivability via frost shock slow without gimping damage by not having flame shock up.
Always felt like any melee on me with even a minimal amount of skill would slaughter me. Makes for an extremely frustrating spec to play in BGs imo. The most helpless 1v1 encounter that I have experienced in the game is being elemental with a feral just beating me like a drum.

I really think they should remove the shared CD for all shocks for elemental. This would greatly increase survivability via frost shock slow without gimping damage by not having flame shock up.


We need something different with our shocks. Without any dispell protection on flameshock it makes it a very difficult situation to decide when to use that crucial CD for either Flameshock or a slow with frost shock.
11/28/2012 06:59 PMPosted by Mightiest
Ele shamans are an absolutely enourmous threat. If one is momentarily allowed to freecast they will pump out nightmarish dps. I make it my business to seek them out and put pressure on.


If you're trying to say that shamans are fine because they are a threat if left alone, I'd say that's very unfair. Name ONE caster that won't absolutely demolish everyone if left alone. Right, there isn't one.

Ele shamans are extremely easy to sit on and I think they'd benefit from either more tools to keep melee at range, or more tools to survive when focused.
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11/28/2012 06:59 PMPosted by Mightiest
Ele shamans are an absolutely enourmous threat. If one is momentarily allowed to freecast they will pump out nightmarish dps. I make it my business to seek them out and put pressure on.


If you're trying to say that shamans are fine because they are a threat if left alone, I'd say that's very unfair. Name ONE caster that won't absolutely demolish everyone if left alone. Right, there isn't one.

Ele shamans are extremely easy to sit on and I think they'd benefit from either more tools to keep melee at range, or more tools to survive when focused.[/quote]

Before the buff to demonology locks, ele shamans had the best cleave damage just behind frost dks. That coupled with how powerful ascendance is and the utility of magma and eq in capture node matches made ele a nice addition to any RBG. Now why bring one when demo locks can do the same and most comps consist of 2locks so you have mindless hellfirw spam coupled with mindless rain of fire spam coupled with demos great knockback and cleave damage. With great def cooldowns and none of the drawbacks.
Every caster has considerably more def cooldowns when being focused with considerably more control of opponents and what bemefits ele shamans did bring to the team is constantly being given to every other class. Oh ele has a knockback? Lets give that to all druids and locks.What ele can cast while moving? Lets give that but a much better version to all locks and fire mages and not that frost NEEDS to stop to cast anything to blow someone up but lets give them a talent choice to do the same.
It's really the same old story for elemental, crazy burst and next to no survivability. Been that was for years now. I can only assume, since its been the same way for so long, that the powers that be are fine with it.

What bothers me is that ele is a mail wearing, shield using spec that is more squishy than any cloth wearer. I dunno, seems wrong!
It's really the same old story for elemental, crazy burst and next to no survivability. Been that was for years now. I can only assume, since its been the same way for so long, that the powers that be are fine with it.

What bothers me is that ele is a mail wearing, shield using spec that is more squishy than any cloth wearer. I dunno, seems wrong!


I totally agree, however EVERYONE has great burst now. The only spec with even remotely worse surv than ours is frosr dks and they still eat us alive. The excuse that ele has great burst (ie. Lava burst, ascendance) is mute when frost mages have 2-3 times the burst. When locks are hitting for 180k plus. When warriors are killing topped geared players in 3 GCDs.

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