Lore Question for character backstory...

World’s End Tavern: Role-play and Fan Fiction
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11/30/2012 02:44 AMPosted by Kassalla
Older but, considering nothing exists to counter what it said, valid.


You mean this bit?

I would assume that Blizzard de-cannonising the rpg books where the information in the italicised part came from, IS a counter to what it said and so makes that whole article invalid


You'd assume as much, you'd be wrong.

Blizz said the blanket de-canonizing was a mistake. I'm too sick to bother, but they came back around and said 'If a newer source doesn't contradict the RPG, then it's still valid until otherwise said'.
11/30/2012 03:00 AMPosted by Maoseitun
Blizz said the blanket de-canonizing was a mistake. I'm too sick to bother, but they came back around and said 'If a newer source doesn't contradict the RPG, then it's still valid until otherwise said'.


Sick or not, dig up a link that backs you up

.
11/30/2012 03:18 AMPosted by Kassalla
Blizz said the blanket de-canonizing was a mistake. I'm too sick to bother, but they came back around and said 'If a newer source doesn't contradict the RPG, then it's still valid until otherwise said'.


Sick or not, dig up a link that backs you up

.


You dig it up.

You're so damn concerned with it.
I'm not the one trying to justify rp'ing half races, but if you can't be bothered digging up a link that backs up your claims, then I can't be bothered arguing with you any more.
11/30/2012 03:37 AMPosted by Kassalla
I'm not the one trying to justify rp'ing half races, but if you can't be bothered digging up a link that backs up your claims, then I can't be bothered arguing with you any more.


I'm more interested in seeing why you won't bother digging up a link that hurts your current, past and future arguments by nullifying them...

... wait, that's why.
I have to thank you Silver. In searching around for a reference that backed up what you said, I went back and watched the Lore panel discussion from Blizzcon 2011. It was really interesting watching that from this side of the mists release.

The relevant comment on the RPG Books comes almost 11 minutes into the panel

"Let's say they're broadly non-canonical, but I'm sure there's all sorts of bits in there that we do wanna use, that are awesome. Just saying, the big blanket thing isn't really helpful, so at some point we may put a project together where we go back and look at every one of those ideas and see which ones we absolutely wanna say yes on and which ones... y'know, like, Admiral Proudmoore's got some love child elf thing - what in the world? He's lawful good, he's not gonna cheat on his wife, y'know? There's some ideas where I was just like, c'mon! So we'll see how that pans out, just talking off the top of my head... though it sounds like most of you do not care, so if that's true, wonderful."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99CZgMOmB9o (Metzen starts talking about the RPG books at around 10:55.)

However, that still doesn't support your statement of
11/30/2012 03:00 AMPosted by Maoseitun
Blizz said the blanket de-canonizing was a mistake. I'm too sick to bother, but they came back around and said 'If a newer source doesn't contradict the RPG, then it's still valid until otherwise said'.


So if you have a source from Blizzard that does actually support your claim, let's see it.
11/30/2012 05:02 PMPosted by Kassalla
"Let's say they're broadly non-canonical


Supports it.

Broadly non-canonical.

We can't make a call on what is or isn't canon without any definitive proof.

So we're both right and we're both wrong.

And it actually comes down to:

Player preference on what is right and what is wrong. So stop arguing that it isn't non-canonical and I won't argue that it is canonical.

We'll let the player decide.
11/30/2012 11:06 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Player preference on what is right and what is wrong. So stop arguing that it isn't non-canonical and I won't argue that it is canonical.


If you lied any harder, your teeth would probably fly out.

Go look through most of the posts in this thread, even mine. I dare you. You're arguing from the wrong perspective.

Few (from a brief glance none, actually) of us are saying this isn't possible, we're saying it's not a good idea. Bringing up how it's immeasureably difficult to RP a half breed well, you'll face community backlash, there's non precident to do such a thing, ect ect. We're not sitting here and saying "It's impossible and would never happen." We're saying "It's an idea which adds little to the character, has a massive chance to blow up in your face, makes the character much more difficult to execute properly, and is fairly outlandish in the sense that it's highly unlikely and has never been seen before."

Come on Silver, you're better than this; this is basic reading and comprehension stuff you're getting stuck on. Are you really so doggedly opposed to us and desprate to simply fight "the man" that you're willfully misunderstanding? Or are you just flabby around the edges?

Either way, you're off your reading game.

11/18/2012 06:12 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Poor show.
Actually, you're dissuading them so hard and bringing up old lore to argue against it you're saying 'No it isn't possible'.

I'm sorry, Hal - but your own writing needs to be upped if you think my comprehension is low.
12/01/2012 01:05 AMPosted by Maoseitun
Actually, you're dissuading them so hard and bringing up old lore to argue against it you're saying 'No it isn't possible'.


Erm. "Old" lore?

I.. I'm.. I'm not familiar with the sort of thing I'm seeing here...

EDIT: Disregarding how horrible what you just said was, I didn't even referance lore.. Let alone any lore which could be considered "Old" (is that like.. natural sex or something? Man made condoms? Discarded fecal matter?). All I said was that the Arch Writer for Warcraft said he didn't like Halfbreeds and that they're very uncommon on Azeroth, especially when compared to other fantasy verses.

That's not lore persay, nor is it "old" by any means.. Still don't get that by the way...
Older lore is lore that has stayed when logic says it would evolve. Hell, Arator is an example of the lore evolving by the sheer fact that he is welcomed by the people of Honor Hold - is it likely it's because of who his parents were? Probably. But a die hard bigot wouldn't care.

The idea that halfbreeds - at least half-human half-elf, half-human half-dwarf, half-human half-gnome, etc. human halfbreeds from the Alliance, would be disfavored and shunned and etc. is old lore. It's lore that isn't relevant with the current logic. That a halfbreed is still shunned - despite the fact the expansions have focused on a coming together for all the Alliance races - is asinine.

You're going off old lore by saying they're shunned by the majority of the races in the Alliance is wonky.

You might be right in the setting of the Horde, where half-breeds would be looked upon with disfavour by many of the races: orcs, tauren and goblins, I think, would be the only ones who don't look down upon it. Orcs because theirs is a might over heritage sort of culture - if you're strong and loyal to the Warchief, you're accepted. Tauren, by the sheer fact they aren't repulsed by the Forsaken and goblins, can be shown that there is very little they don't accept. The goblins are mercenary, mercantile and ruled by greed over blood - if you can help them make money in some way, they couldn't care if you were half-human half-naga or something crazy.

I could only see the elves, in the Alliance, having any sort of discomfort with a half-breed.
12/01/2012 01:55 AMPosted by Maoseitun
The idea that halfbreeds - at least half-human half-elf, half-human half-dwarf, half-human half-gnome, etc. human halfbreeds from the Alliance, would be disfavored and shunned and etc. is old lore. It's lore that isn't relevant with the current logic. That a halfbreed is still shunned - despite the fact the expansions have focused on a coming together for all the Alliance races - is asinine.


And yet humans from our world are inherently racist. Take a good look around, how many of us live in a truly mixed race community? I don't. Myself and all my neighbours are white.

It was early last century that women were given the right to vote, and yet, it was only a couple of years ago that my country gained its first (admittedly white) female Prime Minister. Your country has only recently elected to give it's first black president a second term in office, and has yet to have a female president.

Rather asinine given that it has been accepted for decades that black people and women both have the same rights as white males isn't it?
And yet humans from our world are inherently racist. Take a good look around, how many of us live in a truly mixed race community? I don't. Myself and all my neighbours are white.


Now take a look at World of Warcraft. Humans have something to unify them against, and find themselves united with those very same races that would prompt bigotry. When one day that might have been common, more and more the bigotry is dying out as heroes of all the races are earning acclaim, renown, and actively doing their best to make sure everyone is safe.

Our society, as poor an analogy as this is, is not unified against a completely other set of beings that are hellbent on our destruction - and by this I mean, there isn't a tangible foe threatening our very borders daily, looming above us and promising us total destruction should we turn on one another with pettiness. Azeroth is drastically different - it's now an 'All of us against them' situation.

The only way you could create a perfect analogy between our society and their society is if you introduce an alien invasion or something similar, if humans under threat of total annihilation continued to allow bigotry to exist then they'll find themselves dying out far quicker than those who say 'Screw it, we need to work together'. This is a similar scenario to Azeroth - you have the orcs and undead, chiefly, hellbent on the destruction of the Alliance.

The tauren, trolls, goblins and Blood Elves are all just along because of the oaths they swore to the Horde. The tauren would probably never have done battle with the Alliance if it wasn't for the blood oath. The trolls would be wiped out if they tried to fight the Alliance, as would the goblins and Blood Elves. The Alliance was formed to counter the orcish Horde, and the New Horde was formed in response to the Alliance.

Both sides know the other will destroy them, but where the Alliance is moving beyond these differences and coming together under the banner the Horde is widening the differences - and starting to lose because of it.

So basically, it comes back to: the Alliance is evolving and the xenophobic bigotry is dying out. The change in attitude of the Night Elves should have made that drastically clear to both you and Hal way before I had to point it out.

12/01/2012 02:55 AMPosted by Kassalla
Rather asinine given that it has been accepted for decades that black people and women both have the same rights as white males isn't it?


And... I'm trying to see what you're getting at and failing here.

Like, really - you're now acting like Azeroth and Earth are copies of one another.
12/01/2012 03:30 AMPosted by Maoseitun
And... I'm trying to see what you're getting at and failing here.


What you are failing to comprehend here is that I was using examples from our society of things that have been changing for decades but haven't completely changed for the better. I am not saying Azeroth and Earth are direct copies. That would be ludicrous.

Cultures change slowly.

The uniting to defend the world from a greater enemy than the individual cultures' own prejudices does help speed things up. For the military, the ones actually doing the fighting and literally having to rely on the people behind them to help defeat the people in front.

Not so much for the ordinary people. The ones at home keeping the towns going, raising the children, nursing the sick, growing the food. They take a lot longer to change their opinions because they don't see that the <insert race here> helped fight the same battles that their friends and loved ones did. They just see that see that <insert race here> is different from them and may not trust them as easily.
12/01/2012 01:37 PMPosted by Kassalla
Not so much for the ordinary people.


Uhm... yeah, no. When it comes down to it, people knowing such threats could affect them at any moment - they have to decide whether that half-elf adventurer they just kicked out is going to be the only thing between them and some rampaging enemy of the day... they're going to be more inclined to niceties, especially as the war ramps up.

They take a lot longer to change their opinions because they don't see that the <insert race here> helped fight the same battles that their friends and loved ones did.


I'd doubt it - especially given the rate monsters appear.

Also, word of mouth from those friends and loved ones.

They just see that see that <insert race here> is different from them and may not trust them as easily.


Also doubtful.
and also

consider the fact that up until the rise of the scourge and the third war that humans and dwarves HAD VERY LITTLE CONTACT AT ALL

and if such a cross-breed were to exist

the character would be a teenager at best


Uh, no. The Dwarves were allies of the human kingdoms long before the opening of the Dark Portal in WC1. They were also among the first to step up to the Alliance in it's infancy when Lothar started pushing for it. Humans and Dwarves have a long, respected history together in Warcraft lore.
11/30/2012 02:44 AMPosted by Kassalla
Older but, considering nothing exists to counter what it said, valid.


You mean this bit?

I would assume that Blizzard de-cannonising the rpg books where the information in the italicised part came from, IS a counter to what it said and so makes that whole article invalid


We have Arator, son of Alleria and Turelyon and dedicated Paladin, already in game. Anybody railing against half elves needs to replay Hellfire Peninsula and lighten up.
12/01/2012 02:00 PMPosted by Mirii
We have Arator, son of Alleria and Turelyon and dedicated Paladin, already in game. Anybody railing against half elves needs to replay Hellfire Peninsula and lighten up


Congratulations. You've cited one out of (maybe six?) a few cases of halfbreeds in the entire warcraft cannon. A cannon in which the Arch Writer has said they're rare and should stay that way.
12/01/2012 02:09 PMPosted by Hallinton
Congratulations. You've cited one out of (maybe six?) cases of halfbreeds in the entire warcraft cannon. A cannon in which the Arch Writer has said they're rare and should stay that way.


Six that I can think of:

Garona
Me'dan
Arator
Lan'tressor the Blade (sp?) - the half breed in Nagrand (I want to say half orc/half draenei, but not 100% certain on that)
and Rhonin has 2 children with Varessa Windrunner (that I know of)

But yeah six half breeds in the whole of WoW lore makes them very rare.
Must every thread that asks a lore related question dissolve into arguements? Really? You have nothing to add to what is already been said. The original poster probably made up his/her own mind and is doing it how they want to, so your arguing is pointless.

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