MoP is an affront to PvP

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I'm unsubbed, but before I go I want to make a post talking about the state of PvP. Hopefully if enough PvPers unsub/post Blizzard will make some changes.

The real issues have already been touched upon but maybe by bringing them up again and again and again Blizz will take action.

New CC UI: I feel like you wanted to make it intense, like "oh shi I've been cc'd!" with flashing red lights. But the flashing and loss of UI makes me think "oh shi, I'm paying you a monthly sub for a game that I mostly spend NOT playing!".

CC: The amount of CC is egregious. When I first logged in and saw blinding light, my friend and I were amazed and thought we'd be hitting 2200 casual style. That was before I realized that every class had a new stun (some have multiple stuns). I don't see the benefit in PvE and there is certainly no benefit in PvP, not for your casual PvPer or your hardcore multiglad. It makes the game less engaging and the experience is choppy overall. Esp. when you consider CD on dispels.

Burst: Are you (the people involved with these decisions) idiots? Why would you add this innate resilience (which you renamed to PvP Defense, which btw sounds moronic) and then add another stat, PvP Power, that counters it? Why did you just add even more PvP power with last patch when EVERYONE on the forums and on every other site told you that burst was insanely high? It's completely nonsensical. Why would you do ANYTHING that could affect your player base negatively when you've lost 1 million players and you represent 30% of your parent company's revenue? Use some of the billions of dollars you've gotten from subs/xfers/expansions/name changes/etc. to hire some developers that aren't going to run your company into the ground.

In terms of people QQing over PvE weapons being BiS for PvP: I had every class at 85 for Cata. I played about 7 of them seriously in PvP. On many melee classes, the difference between reg Gurth and T1 wasn't enough to make me not competitive. I killed plenty of players who had heroic Gurth with my T1 weapon. Not only that, but I loved when I had Gurth and tentacles would spawn out of the ground !@#$%^ style. It made the game a lot more interesting tbh. Also just make it so you can't use PvP weapons in PvE environments, raise the iLvL of PvP gear, problem fixed with PvP being BiS for PvE early on.

Class balance: I don't like to complain over class balance usually but wtf? BM hunters, which are kind of under control now. Then you have warriors, whose mobility you nerfed, meaning that casters are much better off, but us melee have to try to kite the warrior during their longer avatar, and if we can't, are JUST as likely to get killed in a few globals since you didn't fix the ACTUAL problem. Lastly, mages are crazy. The amount of damage they can output in a single DF is ridiculous. If I don't have bubble up for that invulnerability, I die to any competent mage, and I'd imagine anyone without a bubble just dies.

I also want to make clear again, I had EVERY class in Cata, and with any given class I could almost always beat any other class. What I'm saying is, some people QQ because they don't know how to counter a class. The class imba in MoP can often times not be countered AT ALL. That's bad design.

Item upgrades: Another monumental f up, you've just gone against your stated goal to make it easier for people to get into PvP. You've also made it that much harder to level and gear alts. Idk about most people but in Cata, depending on rating, it took half the season or so of capping weekly to get full conq geared. What did I do for the remainder of the season? I did random BGs, I did arena, I world PvP'd. That was fun, and I was able to do it on several toons. Making PvP into a PvE-esque grind is NOT going to satiate most PvPers.

Rotation complexity: Not many people complain about this, but the problem is two fold. Firstly, you got rid of the old talent trees, which were so much better than the slop system we have now. I ENJOYED putting 5 talent points to get 5% crit. It was a fun numbers game, I enjoyed the theory crafting aspect. The new talent system hasn't offered "variety". Every warrior picks shockwave in PvP arms spec, because it's better. The system is a failure.
The second problem is a lot of the new skills you added/made mandatory. Why did you add symbiosis? Did you think it was cute/fun/fresh? What it is is massively unbalanced in PvP encounters. Why did you make it so that SO many classes could go stealth, even if momentarily? It's not cool or fun. It makes PvPing against a decent resto druid a nuisance since they can stealth leap and then go travel.

I enjoyed the days when rogues went stealth; it was their trademark, and what their class was built around. I also liked that NE had shadowmeld; it added flavor to their race and lore.

Equally annoying is the fact that now you've added so many mandatory upkeep buffs and other spells. I now have TWO heals to use, which is redundant and bad design (two heals in ret spec). I also have to keep up inquisition, which wasn't necessary last expansion. Feral druids have to keep up something now too (forget the name), on top of monitoring their bleeds and debuffs. Rogues had recuperate to keep up, which wasn't horrible, but when mixed with Slice n Dice, made the class more complex than it had to be.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that by making rotations/game play more complex, you aren't making the game any better, you're just congesting it.

I think A LOT of us can agree on at least CC, burst, class imba and just a general lack of effort on Blizzard's part in MoP.

I'm out, and I won't be checking back, but please use this post to suggest changes to Blizzard, voice your opinions, whatever. If you do want to get at me, I'll be on my toon from time to time for the remainder of my time to say goodbye to friends and get my affairs in order. Peace!
I read this as "I'm not a flavor of the month face roller"(yes i get the irony comming from a bm hunter but i was bm before it was cool) you seem to forget all past expos when typing this becuase you CLEARLY dont remember much of vanilla or bc do you? lets see where to begin...

New CC UI: yea i'll admit it does make all cc effects seem like they last longer but oh well you can turn it off so no big prob.

CC: remember when rogues could literally stun lock you for over an hour? No, probably not. CC has always been goofy yea its flooded but you cant remove some because that will make more forced comps for arena since you wont bring someone who can't cc.

Burst: the irony comming from a paladin.... burst is here to stay some specs are designed as burst dps specs with lower sustained damage to compensate 2 examples are paladins which was greatly grieved over for much of WotLK (when i personally thought it was the worst but more on that later) and BM hunters which are no longer a burst spec and have no sustained damage and are now void thanks to Bugs that blizz left unfixed for too long. also pvp defense? i still see resiliance not defense and this was done to help aid pvp at lower lvls and help new comers ease into pvp i see no issue with this.

That will always be an issue where the 2 are entertwined i say deal with it and now thats not the case thanks to pvp power and resil that the weapon gives so yea point invalid now but you cant say you are x so you must do x they want people to do everything htats why pvp gear is slightly below pve so pvers cna pvp with hte +40% resil base and pvps can pve since pvp gear still has everything pve gear has just slightly lower. strange I found a reason for half hte stuff you complained shouldnt exist

Class Balance:... uggg...... BM hunters were never "op" heavily mechanically bugged yes but not op. op means everything is working fine and they steamroll you if they just fixxed bm we would have been fine but then they made BW pets cc-able and now were a joke in both pvp and pve. Moving off that sore subject of mine mages got nerfed as well and warriors are totally kitable mr.pally you have 3 mobility abilities, rogues and warrios can disarm or jump/sprint away. I do not like the amount of damage warrior can dish out though they have high burst AND sustained they get their cake and can eat it too. My other main issue with pvp class balance is resto druids give cyclone a 15 sec cd and either have shapeshift no longer break movement slows just snares or put a cd on that too, they sac little to nothing while in travel form thanks to their healing mechanic which shouldnt be fair to other classes who have to wait on a cd to do that or waste a glyph slot for it. i also hate pally bubbles but w/e always have always will.

i had an 85 of everything in cata too that means nothing class imbalance in MoP is no omre different especially since this expo changed alot thanks to singular talent trees allowing for some specs to do things they used to not be able to.

Gear upgrades are stupidly expensive i'd sooner get another piece of gear and the actual states added are nominal thats pretty much for mains exclusively which isnt a bad thing for alts no complaints here.

Rotation Complexity: im impartial to either i preferd the bc/wrath trees because it had useless stuff that i really didnt know what it did it just got me further down the tree to sutff that actually mattered(insert sarcasm here) cata had decent trees but they wanted you to feel like that spec right off the bat when you pick it and i salut that becuase especially for enhance shamans you really didnt feel different from other shamans til lvl 30 when you finally got dual wield. also in regards to your "every warrior pick shockwave for arm pvp becuase its better, system failed" statement allow me to state something they themselves said "some choices are going to be clear cut this is better for x situation then y" so now the system didnt fail they wanted something to be better for some and not for others
I don't get symbiosis either but i think its kinda interesting and only "game breaking" with a hunter thanks to deterance for resto but they could just change it to give ice trap or disengage but oh well.

hunters were planned to get camo in burning crusade it got scrapped twice because they couldnt find a good way to implement it mages stealth used to pointless becuse they couldnt do anything it was a placement ability not many mages used it in arenas once hte doors opened and druids have ahd it since day 1 too so where are the other 7(9 classes in vanilla 2 had stealth and neither of the other 2 added have one) stealths that im missing? oh priests have that weird stealth-ish ability but thats a talent not built in ability. rogues can now create an aoe stealth have, improved stealth and so on so its still their shtic. but yea i'll agree that displacer beats is bad but once agian thats because i think resto druids need major tweeking

UPkeep buffs? WHERE WERE YOU IN VANILLA AND BEYOND?!! we've ALWAYS had upkeep on buffs o heavens you didnt play a hunter did you? aspect dancing was great same with warrior stance swapping (back when it emptied your rage unless you talented into it). OH NOES YOU HAVE 2 HEALS!! oh wait they serve completely different purposes one is a fast cast expensive heal the other is a longer cast heavier heal, you used to have 4 and yes yes you did need to keep up inquisition up or you were a BAD pally why wouldnt you want more damage? and rouges have plenty of ways to keep up SnD with out wasting combo points i know assassination has CttC which refreshes it when you use envenom (sadly thats the only rogue spec i've played recently alternating healer/tank with a dps and my rogue comes after my next tank/healing class) no its not pleasent but almost every decent game has upkeep and managment its just smart design to force you to learn you class and what does what and they ahve really worked on keeping several of them on little ramp up or down time-case in point monk tiger palm buff went from having to stack 3 times to once (i prefered the 3 cast because now i dont feel like i don't use tiger palm outside of combo breaker).

No i cant agree on the lack of effort on Blizz's part they did an awesome job and this is possibly my favorite expansion yet taking bcs place and its been out for only a few months.

"I'm out, and I won't be checking back" -ok for all those who plan on writing anything persuasive/debates don't include this phrase EVER it states that you are not willing to defend your points should someone attack them and we all know you will check back to troll people who disagree with you. "get my affairs in order"???? what does that even mean, your quiting a game not dying, sell your stuff put your money the guild bank (or give to your friends idc) and delete everything, thats hardly "putting affairs in order".

Ok upon finishing this i've changed my opinion of you, you aren't a FotM roller your a wrath baby. to which i dont get half of your grips... oh wait you mained a pally solution found. resto druids could deal boomkin damage and retarded healing surv hunters could GCD anyone thanks to LaL (for almost the entire expansion yet bm was bugged for a month and gets nerfed to oblivion RAGE) mage had the cc and the damage (thats a work in progress but its going the right way)
I agree with most of this... Especially the CC part and I have something to add to that: Warriors, Mages, Warlocks, kinda DKs and Hunters... The classes with the MOST CC (and also in the case of Mages and Warriors a couple practically game breaking immunes/breaks) do some of the most damage I've seen. It's annoying getting feared by a lock, seeing all these dots stack on me, and not being able to break the fear (while their chaos bolt cast time is shorter than their fear AND I can't get close to kick if I can break it anyway), breaking one frost nova with Tiger's lust only to get shut down again as soon as I move an inch, or getting caught in that STUPID slow-> stun crap DKs have (although my glove bonus does make it the easiest CC to deal with - i just roll away). PVP Trinkets seem kinda useless now, I'd almost be better off without it, because it doesn't matter what CC I break, I'm right back in it again. If they insist on the CC, reduce burst, maybe make things hit a little softer when I am CC'd, make roots a little easier to manage, or make PVP Trinks useful again (they could make us immune to all CC for a time rather than just dispelling ONE?)

Self heals haven't found the right balance either. I was probably the only one who didn't mind them too much, at least in cata. Fixing PvP Power on heals might have fixed those classes that could heal themselves better than their healer could, but, for me at least, it really crippled my survivability even more. Not saying put them back in, not saying take them out entirely, just saying go to specific classes and see who needs the survival tool or not. Hey here's an idea for balance; Classes that DO CC lots, even out their damage and take away self heals (CC and being clever+intelligent should help them survive), classes that DON'T CC that much, make THEM burst, and give them self heals to help survivability.

I was actually looking forward to the monk buffs in 5.1, and while a couple helped... Feels like I'm still just as useless as ever - still CC'd for too long, damage is still a little clunky, cooldowns are still unreliable (with having to stack Tigerseye brew), and now my survivability has been screwed. Not that I want to be the best or anything, but I still want to have fun, and I don't have fun. Levelling my Ret, that actually still kinda feels like fun.

I disagree on the talent trees thing. The last system was kinda interesting for theorycrafting, sure, but lost a lot in spec balance. Even when they were shortened in Cata, making all specs viable seemed hard without making each tree practically clones of each other. Sure it wasn't bad on hybrid classes where every spec was a different role so they could look different and still be viable anyway, but it would've been hard to balance specs. Maybe it's because I do both PVE and PVP but I enjoy going into my spec and swapping things around when I need. I guess it's not as important when I PVP, but it's also kinda fun to experiment with the different stuff while doing random BGs. And still not everything seems cookie cutter. I mean, I saw some recommended talents, tried them out, and later said "this is bs" and did my own thing. It's also kinda nice not having to worry about looking up the best theory-crafted specs, and gaining what feels like so little from 90% of the talents. This one actually makes a recognisable difference to gameplay, and I like that.
11/29/2012 08:38 PMPosted by Grannygear
CC: The amount of CC is egregious. When I first logged in and saw blinding light, my friend and I were amazed and thought we'd be hitting 2200 casual style. That was before I realized that every class had a new stun (some have multiple stuns). I don't see the benefit in PvE and there is certainly no benefit in PvP, not for your casual PvPer or your hardcore multiglad. It makes the game less engaging and the experience is choppy overall. Esp. when you consider CD on dispels.

Not all classes are that high individually on CCs, but collectively it's very crowded. It bothers me that my mage never seems to run out of CCs for a given situation.

Burst: Are you (the people involved with these decisions) idiots? Why would you add this innate resilience (which you renamed to PvP Defense, which btw sounds moronic) and then add another stat, PvP Power, that counters it?

Common misconception (or poor wording). Power does not counter resilience. They scale independently of one another: http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/228345-mists-pvp-power-and-resilience-guide/

Why did you just add even more PvP power with last patch when EVERYONE on the forums and on every other site told you that burst was insanely high?

They added it to weapons to make them better than PvE weapons. I'm not sure how big the difference was, but I imagine they're taking the next season/tier into account somewhat. That being said, I agree the damage is too high. I'd like a buff to baseline resilience (the 40% you start with). It's not cutting it now as a starting point and the transition into PvP is worse than before.

In terms of people QQing over PvE weapons being BiS for PvP: I had every class at 85 for Cata. I played about 7 of them seriously in PvP. On many melee classes, the difference between reg Gurth and T1 wasn't enough to make me not competitive.

In Cata, I would agree. As of 5.1, the difference is much larger.

Also just make it so you can't use PvP weapons in PvE environments

They don't do this because it increases gating between PvP and PvE environments

Raise the iLvL of PvP gear

Conversely, if the ilvl is the same, PvP gear is easier/more reliable to acquire. It forces PvE players to PvP to keep up with gearing. In other words, the problem is just reversed in direction.

Lastly, mages are crazy. The amount of damage they can output in a single DF is ridiculous. If I don't have bubble up for that invulnerability, I die to any competent mage, and I'd imagine anyone without a bubble just dies.

No argument here. I agree with this wholeheartedly. My mage feels like easy-mode compared to the other classes I play.

Item upgrades: Another monumental f up, you've just gone against your stated goal to make it easier for people to get into PvP.

Agreed, I like the idea of item upgrades, but it increases the gap between new PvPers and geared ones.

Rotation complexity: Not many people complain about this, but the problem is two fold. Firstly, you got rid of the old talent trees, which were so much better than the slop system we have now. I ENJOYED putting 5 talent points to get 5% crit. It was a fun numbers game, I enjoyed the theory crafting aspect. The new talent system hasn't offered "variety". Every warrior picks shockwave in PvP arms spec, because it's better. The system is a failure.

I don't think the old talent system was superior, but I do think there are some tiers now that are wildly unbalanced in both environments. Check out worldofwargraphs.com (sampling group is over 22M players with +2200 rating) and you can see that many talent tiers have a clear favorite (+95%) for PvP. DKs have some of the most evenly spread use of talents, while Mages arguably have the most uniform choices. When the disparity is that severe, I think it's time to consider tweaking them or altering the tier entirely.
11/30/2012 01:19 AMPosted by Auryanna
PVP Trinkets seem kinda useless now, I'd almost be better off without it, because it doesn't matter what CC I break, I'm right back in it again. If they insist on the CC, reduce burst, maybe make things hit a little softer when I am CC'd, make roots a little easier to manage, or make PVP Trinks useful again (they could make us immune to all CC for a time rather than just dispelling ONE?)

On GC's twitter there was discussion of reducing the trinket cd. 1 min seems to work well and even has field-testing with the lock talent, Unbound Will.

Hey here's an idea for balance; Classes that DO CC lots, even out their damage and take away self heals (CC and being clever+intelligent should help them survive), classes that DON'T CC that much, make THEM burst, and give them self heals to help survivability.

I'd personally just rather see less CC and more healing/mitigation. The layering of CC isn't nearly as interesting for a player to react to as the ever-changing levels of damage/healing output. You could argue that this "CC or heal" paradigm already exists (something like Mages/Hunters vs. Locks/Pallies), but it seems like the CC wins out everytime; primarily because nearly all CCs have shorter CDs than defensive abilities.

Spammable CC isn't as interesting either -this is coming from a Lock, mind you. The Rogue design seems much better, where cooldowns are limiting (Blind, Vanish, Shadow Dance, Kidney Shot, Disarm), resources are costly (CPs on kidney, energy for Kick and Blind) and timing is even more vital as a result.

I disagree on the talent trees thing. The last system was kinda interesting for theorycrafting, sure, but lost a lot in spec balance. Even when they were shortened in Cata, making all specs viable seemed hard without making each tree practically clones of each other. Sure it wasn't bad on hybrid classes where every spec was a different role so they could look different and still be viable anyway, but it would've been hard to balance specs. Maybe it's because I do both PVE and PVP but I enjoy going into my spec and swapping things around when I need. I guess it's not as important when I PVP, but it's also kinda fun to experiment with the different stuff while doing random BGs. And still not everything seems cookie cutter. I mean, I saw some recommended talents, tried them out, and later said "this is bs" and did my own thing. It's also kinda nice not having to worry about looking up the best theory-crafted specs, and gaining what feels like so little from 90% of the talents. This one actually makes a recognisable difference to gameplay, and I like that.

I also have enjoyed trying out different talents with and against different comps. A good tier has opportunity for each talent to shine. There just aren't as many of those good tiers yet as I would like.
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No i cant agree on the lack of effort on Blizz's part they did an awesome job and this is possibly my favorite expansion yet taking bcs place and its been out for only a few months.

"I'm out, and I won't be checking back" -ok for all those who plan on writing anything persuasive/debates don't include this phrase EVER it states that you are not willing to defend your points should someone attack them and we all know you will check back to troll people who disagree with you. "get my affairs in order"???? what does that even mean, your quiting a game not dying, sell your stuff put your money the guild bank (or give to your friends idc) and delete everything, thats hardly "putting affairs in order".

Ok upon finishing this i've changed my opinion of you, you aren't a FotM roller your a wrath baby. to which i dont get half of your grips... oh wait you mained a pally solution found. resto druids could deal boomkin damage and retarded healing surv hunters could GCD anyone thanks to LaL (for almost the entire expansion yet bm was bugged for a month and gets nerfed to oblivion RAGE) mage had the cc and the damage (thats a work in progress but its going the right way)


Surprise! I happened to have this open on my browser. I appreciate most of the comments, they seem really thought out and thanks for the clarification on PvP Power, I wrote that post in like 10 minutes so facts probably aren't 100%.

In terms of me being a "Wrath baby", I've been playing since vanilla, hated BC, played the end of Wrath, played all Cata. The reason I included the fact that I've played every class at end level in PvP (Cata) was important. It was meant to show you that even though I played a good 6-7 classes seriously and competitively, I found few issues in terms of class balance. I equally loved playing my feral druid, ret pal, unholy DK, warrior, frost mage and enhance shaman. In Cata, when I lost, it was generally my fault. In MoP, the loser is generally the one with the weaker class kit and/or the one who gets their stun>CD>nuke phase off.

Idk why you would try to defend BM hunters; while you have a right to your opinion, it really kills any credibility you might have tried to bring into this post. Even POST stampede "mechanic" fix, there were still one shot macro videos being rampantly distributed across youtube. I understand though that it's natural to be biased about your own class.

Most of your comments have been very pointed and borderline insulting, so I'm not going to "debate" them, not because I'm afraid to lose an internet debate with you but because if I don't even want to play the game I SURELY don't want to argue with you. You just seem really ignorant and while I tried to read your response, I really couldn't bog through it all. Also "getting my affairs in order" refers to me taking care of my guild, friends and the 800k+ I've got sitting around. There is actual value to that, hence getting my affairs in order. It was also kind of a joke.

Final thought: why do some people say "dude remember expansion x? PvP was soooo much worse" as if that's supposed to be some consolation. Should I be happy that the state of PvP is worse or equal (in a bad way) to an expansion that is 2/4/6 years old? I feel like that's rationalizing failure. Why do I spend ~$16/month for a game that is getting worse? Now if you like PvE and dailies, MoP is probably great. But for those of us looking for casual or serious PvP, this expansion is a travesty. I feel like when people defend it at this point it's either willful ignorance or true fanboyism. There are also probably a small percentage that actually enjoy the PvP changes, though judging from forum responses all over the net, this is few and far between. Either way, enjoy panda land those of you who are staying (I mean this seriously, have fun, it's a game :))
Yes, CC is absolutely stupid right now.

All the other stuff I can tolerate. But the amount of CC in the game is is beyond ridiculous.
I only play to PvP on ALL my classes... If I cannot Pvp I will leave too!

This is why I accepted the warning when joining a PvP server!
I made a post about CC awhile ago, and the first step to sorting it out is consolidating DR categories. Right now there are way too many. Single target fear doesn't share a DR with AoE fear. Most 'loss of control' effects don't DR with each other. Poly, fear, and cyclone DO NOT DR. This means that with minimal effort, in 3s, a mage, druid, lock team, can completely lock down 1 person (healer) until the other two people on their team is dead.

Add into that the fact that both mage and lock are really bursty right now, and that much CC (no, it really does only take minimal effort) is devastating. That team doesn't have to do anything special except make sure they don't DR their own CC, and their opposing team, no matter the comp, is going to be locked down indefinitely.

CC needs to be separated into DRs according to the effect it has:

1. Stuns
2. Loss of control of character
3. Roots
4. Slows
5. silences
6. interrupts

The fact that it took Blizzard several pvp seasons to put Fear and Sap on the same DR, shows you just how out of touch they are with good design philosophy, and even now, being able to CC someone indefinitely is just further evidence of that.
I didnt read any of it, but I did see the word "egregious" lol good one!
honestly cc and burst are completely out of control

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