PvP Power and DoT Classes

Arenas
PvP Power heavily favours burst classes. Why is this? Because classes that can burst without much setup are able to force opponents to play defensive very early on. PvP Power exasperates this playstyle.

DoT classes/specs like SPriest, Unholy Dks, Afflic Locks aren't able to setup their damage in this bursty enviroment, and games generally don't go long enough for them to be useful. Sustained pressure is now useless compared to burst because of the 50% plus PvP power we have.

PvP Power in it's current form is ruining the game and it needs to change.

PvP Power was brought in to stop PvE weapons being too strong in PvP. One solution would be to use PvP Power as a scaling stat. Some abilities would scale at 1:1 but some of the more OP abilities could have, say a 1:.7 scale. This would mean PvP Power would still be better than PvE gear and Bliz wouldn't have to touch PvE damage, they could just change how much damage abilities would do to other players.

I have never been one shot, but the amount of times I've been taken from full health to dead within about 3 secs is astounding. This needs to change if PvP is to be fun again.

Seriously Blizz/Ghostcrawler fix this game!!!!!!!
disples and unlimited healer mana hurt affliction more then anything.
12/03/2012 08:52 PMPosted by Sadiie
disples and unlimited healer mana hurt affliction more then anything.


Where do I get this unlimited mana?
This is not actually true at all, PvP Power is a static damage increase that does not favor any type of damage in any way. It increases DoTs just as much as it increases any other ability.

The reason for the discrepancy you are talking about between DoTs and burst damage is just a result of DoTs/filler being awful and burst cooldowns/abilities being insane
NO.

I don't see why people think PvP power is the problem.

The PvP power exists on the gear to separate it from PvE gear. Without PvP power, we're going to end up with PvE gear being better, because the crap load of extra hp and damage would be worth more than the extra 20% mitigation.

PvP power does not favor burst classes over DoT classes... the bursty nature of the game right now favors burst classes. Affliction fails because people can be healed for half of their health with one GCD and then that team and go ahead and score a kill at pretty much any point in the game. Shadow has some burst so it's fine... but putting pressure on multiple targets doesn't do much if you don't have the burst and they can get through it quickly anyway.

Adjusting a few things that do too much damage (frost mage and warrior mostly) and buffing stam on the PvP gear would solve most of the problems...
This is not actually true at all, PvP Power is a static damage increase that does not favor any type of damage in any way. It increases DoTs just as much as it increases any other ability.

The reason for the discrepancy you are talking about between DoTs and burst damage is just a result of DoTs/filler being awful and burst cooldowns/abilities being insane


The point I'm trying to make is that burst classes are now doing 50%+ extra damage before resilience, making their burst more extreme, killing classes faster, and favouring them to the detriment of any class that doesn't burst or takes time to burst. If there were more defensives baked into classes to outlast the burst then the increase due to PvP Power (which is a flat increase) would also be helpful to pressure classes. But as it stands PvP Power is too much of a damage increase to burst classes. So remedy's would include: removing PvP Power, Reducing burst damage of classes and/or Increasing the amount of defensives.
The PvP power exists on the gear to separate it from PvE gear. Without PvP power, we're going to end up with PvE gear being better, because the crap load of extra hp and damage would be worth more than the extra 20% mitigation.


Definetly, noone wants a repeat of Rogues last season (btw before 5.1 sha touched weaps would have been better than PvP ones but not by the incredible margins with rogues last season, only by a little bit)

12/03/2012 09:04 PMPosted by Believable
Adjusting a few things that do too much damage (frost mage and warrior mostly) and buffing stam on the PvP gear would solve most of the problems...

Buffing resilience would be the way to go. It normally leads to a greater amount of effective health, and you don't want a situation where PvP gear is better than PvE gear, especially in progression fights, because the gear has has more stam on it.

The point I'm trying to make is that


The point you're trying to make is wrong. You assume we don't understand you, but you're just wrong. PvP power is not the problem, extremely fast damage/healing is the problem.

Saying PvP power is the problem is like saying Strength is the problem. There will always be a stat that buffs damage, and PvP power solves so many problems.. The problem is that overall damage is too high.

Real solution: Provide a bonus to resilience. Make mana regen slower. Make mana actually matter so that Healers can run oom.
^
Various things effect the damage of a given ability. Primary stats like strength agil etc., mastery, base damage, weapon damage, crit chance, even the presence of other abilities. How hard these abilities hit or heal is determined by several different factors which blizzard control and use to try and balance PvE damage.

There is no other stat than PvP power that is a flat out buff to all damage. To put it another way if I increase my strength by 20% my obliterates will not hit by an extra 20% (weapon damage is the biggest factor in this case). PvP power does increase all abilities by a set amount before factoring resilience, this should change, it unbalances abilities.

Edit:Typo
Pretty decent idea to make PvP power scale differently depending on the ability. Would take a lot of tuning, but hey... Look at the tuning they do for PvE.
It's nothing to do with pvp power, it's to do with sustained damage currently being garbage and burst being insane
^
Various things effect the damage of a given ability. Primary stats like strength agil etc., mastery, base damage, weapon damage, crit chance, even the presence of other abilities. How hard these abilities hit or heal is determined by several different factors which blizzard control and use to try and balance PvE damage.

There is no other stat than PvP power that is a flat out buff to all damage. To put it another way if I increase my strength by 20% my obliterates will not hit by an extra 20% (weapon damage is the biggest factor in this case). PvP power does increase all abilities by a set amount before factoring resilience, this should change, it unbalances abilities.

Edit:Typo


Sorry this is simply not how it works. Your information is mostly right but your conclusion is wrong.

All other stats i.e strength are factored in before PvP Power, to every ability, allowing every ability to scale exactly the same as before. PvP power, being a flat overall increase, does not cause disparity between different abilities.

Comparing 20% Strength to 20% PvP Power? Try comparing x,000 Strength vs x,000 PvP Power
^
Yep, no disagreement. The damage of the ability is calcualted with the normal stats, then multiplied by PvP Power (then decreased by PvP resilience), just like you've stated, but I'm saying this makes abilities unbalanced and unreasonable.

Lets take Obliterate as an example again. In PvE (where abilities are balanced from) blizzard "decide" how hard its going to hit with the gear that is available at different gear levels, they control it's damage tightly so all specs play a certain way and are viable. They don't do it perfectly but its decent (example for dks at level 85 with heroic ds gear death siphon is a dps increase, at 90 its a big dps loss due to the way the ability scales).

PvP Power is a blunt stat which increases Oblits damage as a flat percentage. The end result is Obliterates hitting harder than what they should be if the ability was balanced. In fact for Frost DK's you essentially sit on all your runes till km procs for a crit Oblit. A better way of using PvP Power would be, say, Oblit scales at less than 1 to 1 with PvP Power. Blizzard decides how hard it should hit with decent gear against a geared opponent and decided the scale factor from there.

As it stands hard hitting abilities in PvE are hitting like a truck in PvP, more than what it should really be doing (think frost bomb, heroic strike, chaos bolt etc), these abilities should be hitting hard but not as much as they do. Blizzard won't nerf them because of PvE, but they should better utilise the stats that they've thought up.
^
Yep, no disagreement. The damage of the ability is calcualted with the normal stats, then multiplied by PvP Power (then decreased by PvP resilience), just like you've stated, but I'm saying this makes abilities unbalanced and unreasonable.

Lets take Obliterate as an example again. In PvE (where abilities are balanced from) blizzard "decide" how hard its going to hit with the gear that is available at different gear levels, they control it's damage tightly so all specs play a certain way and are viable. They don't do it perfectly but its decent (example for dks at level 85 with heroic ds gear death siphon is a dps increase, at 90 its a big dps loss due to the way the ability scales).

PvP Power is a blunt stat which increases Oblits damage as a flat percentage. The end result is Obliterates hitting harder than what they should be if the ability was balanced. In fact for Frost DK's you essentially sit on all your runes till km procs for a crit Oblit. A better way of using PvP Power would be, say, Oblit scales at less than 1 to 1 with PvP Power. Blizzard decides how hard it should hit with decent gear against a geared opponent and decided the scale factor from there.

As it stands hard hitting abilities in PvE are hitting like a truck in PvP, more than what it should really be doing (think frost bomb, heroic strike, chaos bolt etc), these abilities should be hitting hard but not as much as they do. Blizzard won't nerf them because of PvE, but they should better utilise the stats that they've thought up.


Yes, but what everybody is trying to tell you is that PVP power also buffs dots. The real problem is that dots right now put out little pressure compared to the burst. That would be the case whether PVP power existed or not. What you're really asking for is for Blizzard to scale damage differently for PVP and PVE. While this would be fantastic, because they could literally cater to both groups individually, I don't see this ever happening. It would cause a lot of confusion. So they implemented PVP power and resilience to do the scaling for them. And so far it's been awful.
Yeah absolutely it would be confusing, but I rekon the players would deal with a bit of confusion if it meant a balanced game. Also there might be a situation where for some classes primary stat gems might be more useful than PvP Power, but if implemented well the difference wouldn't be huge.

Yep, fully understand that DoTs hit harder with PvP Power, what I'm saying is DoTs are less important because of the way PvP Power buffs burst, thus it favours bursty specs.

Edit: Just on DoT damage, afflic is one of, if not the best DPS spec in PvE atm. It is all DoT's. Unholy DoT damage has also been buffed since cata.
12/03/2012 08:42 PMPosted by Hemalador
DoT classes/specs like SPriest


Um spriests are amazing right now.
12/03/2012 10:31 PMPosted by Hemalador
The PvP power exists on the gear to separate it from PvE gear. Without PvP power, we're going to end up with PvE gear being better, because the crap load of extra hp and damage would be worth more than the extra 20% mitigation.


Definetly, noone wants a repeat of Rogues last season (btw before 5.1 sha touched weaps would have been better than PvP ones but not by the incredible margins with rogues last season, only by a little bit)

12/03/2012 09:04 PMPosted by Believable
Adjusting a few things that do too much damage (frost mage and warrior mostly) and buffing stam on the PvP gear would solve most of the problems...

Buffing resilience would be the way to go. It normally leads to a greater amount of effective health, and you don't want a situation where PvP gear is better than PvE gear, especially in progression fights, because the gear has has more stam on it.


Buffing resilience wouldn't work because we'll get more resilience as time goes on and it would overly benefit healers.
12/03/2012 08:42 PMPosted by Hemalador
DoT classes/specs like SPriest, Unholy Dks, Afflic Locks aren't able to setup their damage in this bursty enviroment, and games generally don't go long enough for them to be useful. Sustained pressure is now useless compared to burst because of the 50% plus PvP power we have.


10/10


Buffing resilience wouldn't work because we'll get more resilience as time goes on and it would overly benefit healers.


Any buff to healers should be accompanied by a nerf to mana regen, in order to slow the game down, and allow teams to focus on either burst OR preventing the healer from using their efficient heals, and running them OOM.

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