JoinBattlefield, Post 5.1? PART 2

UI and Macro
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12/04/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Miligou
a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.

This is a good change, now if only this logic would be applied to multi-boxers...

This.
12/04/2012 02:08 PMPosted by Daxxarri
The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP. Perhaps it's been a long time since you've been in a random group, but a lot of players will see that they're up against a premade and simply quit. At best, they suffer through it. To an extent premade groups count on this. Heck, one of the popular addons announces opposing players that appear to have rage quit.


Now let us be honest, due to these addons and people like Rathamus and Tiny, regular Battleground PVP had picked up and was growing by leaps and bounds. That is what alerted you. More and more people were turning to the "coordinated" PVP and fewer and fewer "random groups" were being formed. The BG's were no longer sitting idle.
I know for a fact, that more and more of our games were against other "coordinated" opposing players. Battles became longer, harder and a whole hell of a lot more fun! They were not the Farm fest you claim they were, they were true Player vs Player games. Not scripted, not forced on anyone, not the repetitive grind of the normal wow game.

I "understand" you made the rule and claim we were exploiting. If you think about it though, it was Blizzard that show us how to do it. You gave us the idea when you numbered the battleground way way back, you gave us guild chat, you gave us in game voice chat, and trade chat. For years we used the count down, then the addon came about in 2006, easier still. Then you opened up cross realms and gave us real id friends. It is getting even easier. Then came Battle Tags and phasing! We were set. You gave us everything we needed, including the idea, but then turned around and slapped our hands, pointed a finger, called us a name and said, this is NOT for you, it is for the REAL players.

Thank you again Blizzard and family, Happy Holidays
@ Daxxarri, you're the best. Thank you.

I'm not that good of a PVP'er, on my lock or my pally. When I queue for a random BG, I typically am going in there with the idea that it'll be me and a bunch of other random players (who hopefully have played some BGs before). One of my biggest grievances is seeing premade team who is wearing full arena gear, coming in to a random BG, stomping my entire team (where probably 45% do not have PVP Gear); it feels as though it ruins the spirit of the game.

Besides botting (I can't even count on both hands how many times I've seen level 85s flying around Jade Forest or team members botting in BGs), premade teams are one of the most annoying aspect of the game.
12/04/2012 02:08 PMPosted by Daxxarri
spirit of the game


you say, 'spirit of the game' but what is that?
could it be the spirit of competition, as shown
in, i don't know, the 2008 beijing olympics?

perhaps this patch should have included a
sandbox for those you say you're protecting.

12/04/2012 02:08 PMPosted by Daxxarri
The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP.


actually, the ultimate effect of this kind of queuing has been
driving players back to pvp and the battlegrounds. the effect
of this patching will be to maintain what has always been.

i appreciate your sentiments and regards for all players
but you (you in the plural) really need to think hard on
what you're trying to accomplish, and then be upfront
with that. this 'we're working on it' is not the proper
way to go about it. have a vision, define it fully, then
put it out there, instead of feel good cryptic text.

Cheers.
Pleb.


Dear Daxxarri,

My experience to not have to deal with bots and afk'ers over and over and over and over in random battlegrounds is more important than some random Alliance's experience to not lose a game against a team that is present and coordinated.

Fix the bot problem and you'll see the premade "problem" fix itself.


Thanks for this post, mate :) This is how I feel too. Minus the co-ordinated part because it's still random as far as I could tell - just all players like it should be. I don't mind playing with terrible PVPers if they're real people. Real people learn from experience and get better - a bot is ALWAYS bad.

I don't care one iota if I get roflstomped by an Alliance pre-formed and camped in my graveyard if that means we don't have to deal with bots, because I too could get that addon and play with REAL PLAYERS.
12/04/2012 03:01 PMPosted by Xaeva
Now let us be honest, due to these addons and people like Rathamus and Tiny, regular Battleground PVP had picked up and was growing by leaps and bounds. That is what alerted you. More and more people were turning to the "coordinated" PVP and fewer and fewer "random groups" were being formed. The BG's were no longer sitting idle.


False. That is neither what 'alerted' us, nor were Battlegrounds ever even close to sitting idle.

What is true that there's been an increase in pre-made groups disrupting the PvP experience for other players, though. Pre-mades in the normal queue, however they are formed, are not something that we've ever been particularly fond of. It had become more of an issue of late, so we addressed it accordingly.


I know for a fact, that more and more of our games were against other "coordinated" opposing players. Battles became longer, harder and a whole hell of a lot more fun! They were not the Farm fest you claim they were, they were true Player vs Player games. Not scripted, not forced on anyone, not the repetitive grind of the normal wow game.


Perhaps this seemed to be your personal experience, but I assure you that this was far from generally the case. Regardless, what of the games that you played that weren't against other pre-mades? Just hapless casualties to your fun, I suppose?

Based on your enthusiasm for "true Player vs Player" combat, I'm sure that you'll find War Games and Rated Battlegrounds quite compelling.

12/04/2012 03:01 PMPosted by Xaeva
You gave us everything we needed, including the idea, but then turned around and slapped our hands, pointed a finger, called us a name and said, this is NOT for you, it is for the REAL players.


You've made the assumption that all those things were accomplished expressly so that you could queue into battlegrounds as an organized group against disorganized opponents? That assumption is mistaken. If you want organized PvP against organized opponents, as you claim, that experience is readily available.

No one's wrist was slapped. There have been no suspensions over this issue. We're just making our stance on the subject clear, so that there's no room for misunderstanding.

12/04/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Evannder
Fix the bot problem and you'll see the premade "problem" fix itself.


Bots are a separate problem, with a separate solution. Please stop conflating the two, because, and I'll say this as respectfully as I can: this is complete nonsense.

Put simply, this argument is a red herring. For as long as there's been Battleground PvP, there have been players looking for a way to destroy their enemies to quickly and easily get fast rewards with a minimal time investment. That's the bottom line here, or the variety of other options available would be more compelling.

Bots aren't an issue in War Games or Rated Battlegrounds.
if you break it down, what does a full oQueue premade bring to the table that is unfair?


I’ll try to break it down as clearly as I can:

Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.

The normal Battleground queue is for players to jump in and play against other players in a similar situation. We realize that it's not a perfect system, and we're still looking at ways to improve normal Battleground queues further. Regardless, it's not meant for organized groups to "pug stomp" and get quick Honor. We have built in outlets for players that want to organize--if a competitive, social experience was really the goal, then there are clear ways to achieve that.

The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP. Perhaps it's been a long time since you've been in a random group, but a lot of players will see that they're up against a premade and simply quit. At best, they suffer through it. To an extent premade groups count on this. Heck, one of the popular addons announces opposing players that appear to have rage quit.

Addons aren’t really a viable solution for botting issues, but we do take those issues seriously and we'll continue our work on improvements to the Battleground system, including better ways to deal with botting and other exploitative gameplay.


Dax,

Just my 2 cents here but I participated in Xserver organized AV run simply because AV is so broken. Not in design, but in mentality. How do we get people to follow a strat when the game has conditioned everyone to run as fast as they can to the other base? 1 in every 10 AV matches, players might listen to a strat but for the most part, AV is played out the same way every day.

Alliance Rush Drek.
Horde think they can rush Stormpike but can't. And sit there while the Alliance pulls Drek.

If the intent is to create a fair environment for pvp to exist, then you guys have to change the way AV (and to a lesser extent) IoC are played. Because as Horde, there is almost no reason to que up for AV/Isle. You guys have to guide the mentality of the players and force the issue...

Otherwise, there is just no reason for us to que up for AV if it's just going to be a quick honor farm for Alliance. I'm not even saying it shouldn't be, but that is why most of us que'ed cross realm for AV.

Because we wanted to pvp, not watch the alliance rollface to Drek and win the match in 6-9 minutes with 0 pvp.

Btw...I'm not talking about an tell me all the strats and nuances of AV and how the advantages the Horde and Alliance have. I'm talking about changing the mentality of the player base so that pvp willl happen. In every BG besides IoC, PvP happens. AV is the only BG that both teams could skip each other complelty, race to the boss and if this occurs, we all know the outcome.

Alliance Wins the Game.

I want to add..that with the current state of BG battleground achievements, doing these with a group is in the spirit of Warcraft. Some of those AV achievements will never be done solo in a random group of 39 players. I understand your position in the post above this one, I just hope you understand that I never did any of this for fast honor games but I did it beause I wanted a better shot at winning and Blizzard always said they wanted to emphasize team play.

ps...where did the blue text go. =(
Don't you think that you should not be discouraging people from working together (in an MMO might I add) and instead working on the faulty matchmaking system? This is a band-aid fix at best.
I am not judging anyone but, before this change how were small groups or solo players supposed to run BG's?
Dear Daxxarri and Blizzard,

If there's a demand for premade PvP, you guys have the ability to provide the supply for it. Look at how many people using this addon, obviously they love it. And you guys, can easily provide an outlet for us to fix this rather than removing the function altogether.

We love a premade PvP, and we love challenges. You guys could've come out with a premade PvP random battleground where we can match against other 10m/15m/40m premades PvP and go all out. Provide less honor point/conquest point. It's like an RBG, but without the ratings involved. Doesn't this solves all the problem everyone's having?
12/04/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Regardless, what of the games that you played that weren't against other pre-mades? Just hapless casualties to your fun, I suppose?


QFT.

Daxx, don't waste anymore time on these trolls. It's clear to everyone they just wanted to pug stomp for effortless honor. Now they're whining about it.

You made the correct call here. Please know that the player base that uses the random BG que system is 100% behind this fix.


You made the correct call here. Please know that the player base that uses the random BG que system is 100% behind this fix.


And you speak for everyone I suppose?
12/04/2012 03:33 PMPosted by Chondrodite
We love a premade PvP, and we love challenges. You guys could've come out with a premade PvP random battleground where we can match against other 10m/15m/40m premades PvP and go all out. Provide less honor point/conquest point. It's like an RBG, but without the ratings involved. Doesn't this solves all the problem everyone's having?


We're open to exploring the possibility of creating a pre-made queue for Battlegrounds, or improving the War Game system in some way.
12/04/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Rexzoolza


I’ll try to break it down as clearly as I can:

Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.

The normal Battleground queue is for players to jump in and play against other players in a similar situation. We realize that it's not a perfect system, and we're still looking at ways to improve normal Battleground queues further. Regardless, it's not meant for organized groups to "pug stomp" and get quick Honor. We have built in outlets for players that want to organize--if a competitive, social experience was really the goal, then there are clear ways to achieve that.

The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP. Perhaps it's been a long time since you've been in a random group, but a lot of players will see that they're up against a premade and simply quit. At best, they suffer through it. To an extent premade groups count on this. Heck, one of the popular addons announces opposing players that appear to have rage quit.

Addons aren’t really a viable solution for botting issues, but we do take those issues seriously and we'll continue our work on improvements to the Battleground system, including better ways to deal with botting and other exploitative gameplay.


Dax,

Just my 2 cents here but I participated in Xserver organized AV run simply because AV is so broken. Not in design, but in mentality. How do we get people to follow a strat when the game has conditioned everyone to run as fast as they can to the other base? 1 in every 10 AV matches, players might listen to a strat but for the most part, AV is played out the same way every day.

Alliance Rush Drek.
Horde think they can rush Stormpike but can't. And sit there while the Alliance pulls Drek.

If the intent is to create a fair environment for pvp to exist, then you guys have to change the way AV (and to a lesser extent) IoC are played. Because as Horde, there is almost no reason to que up for AV/Isle. You guys have to guide the mentality of the players and force the issue...

Otherwise, there is just no reason for us to que up for AV if it's just going to be a quick honor farm for Alliance. I'm not even saying it shouldn't be, but that is why most of us que'ed cross realm for AV.

Because we wanted to pvp, not watch the alliance rollface to Drek and win the match in 6-9 minutes with 0 pvp.

Btw...I'm not talking about an tell me all the strats and nuances of AV and how the advantages the Horde and Alliance have. I'm talking about changing the mentality of the player base so that pvp willl happen. In every BG besides IoC, PvP happens. AV is the only BG that both teams could skip each other complelty, race to the boss and if this occurs, we all know the outcome.

Alliance Wins the Game.

I want to add..that with the current state of BG battleground achievements, doing these with a group is in the spirit of Warcraft. Some of those AV achievments will never be done solo in a random group of 39 players. I understand your position in the post above this one, I just hope you understand that I never did any of this for fast honor games but I did it beause I wanted a better shot at winning and Blizzard always said they wanted to emphasize team play.


I find this amusing. I have been in plenty of AV's where stormpike got rushed and Van got killed before Drek. It was basically a race to see which died first. Also, there are several ways that just a few people can slow this down. Alliance never guards the towers with more than 2 people. Take them back. Also try to pick off anyone that might be in tank spec. Keep us from getting a tank and you win. If you force a turtle, horde usually wins. Do this by protecting Galv.
Dear Daxxarri and Blizzard,

If there's a demand for premade PvP, you guys have the ability to provide the supply for it. Look at how many people using this addon, obviously they love it. And you guys, can easily provide an outlet for us to fix this rather than removing the function altogether.

We love a premade PvP, and we love challenges. You guys could've come out with a premade PvP random battleground where we can match against other 10m/15m/40m premades PvP and go all out. Provide less honor point/conquest point. It's like an RBG, but without the ratings involved. Doesn't this solves all the problem everyone's having?


I am not a fan of the implementation of RBG but, isn't that what it is for? Organized PvP team against organized PvP team?

They even implemented a feature so when you max conquest points (unfortunately only in RBG not in arenas) you start getting honor. That sounds like exactly what you are looking for.

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