JoinBattlefield, Post 5.1? PART 2

UI and Macro
Post Limit:
Prev 1 13 14 15 26 Next
12/04/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Miligou
This is a good change, now if only this logic would be applied to multi-boxers...


QFT
12/04/2012 03:52 PMPosted by Saraphina
So, you don't like the rofl stomping shoe on the other foot?


getting roflstomped isn't the issue, or it shouldn't be.
i think what she's referencing would be the extremely
broken mmr convention.

many of these anti premade arguments are falling short
because of small picture thinking, getting hung up on one
or two points that are being touted as complete gospel.

given the many posts on this topic since this patch it
is quite clear, or should be, that the short sighted are in
lockstep with a regressive and apologist type of warcraft,
and it appears they're getting what they want.

Cheers.
Pleb.

Also you have to have top notch gear, resil, etc etc, or we will just be fodder to the Rated Teams we get thrown in with. Do we random BG till we get our gear? and that will take about, 2-3-4 months depending on the CTA and luck?


So, you don't like the rofl stomping shoe on the other foot?


The point was that if you go in as a 0 -1500 rated team, many times you will be tossed in with 2000-2400 rated teams. Another show of Blizzard Match making.

Already established teams will not take you because you do not have the gear or rating, unless you want to pay a whole lot of gold for a carry.

And the teams I run with generally have 0-2400 resil gear because they want to get their Honor gear in less than 4-5 months.

Now why in hell would I force my friends to go in to a "RATED" BG that they had no hope in hell of winning? And if they don't win, they get no rating, no honor, no gear no nothing?

Would you do that to your friends?
Now why in hell would I force my friends to go in to a "RATED" BG that they had no hope in hell of winning? And if they don't win, they get no rating, no honor, no gear no nothing?

Would you do that to your friends?


Nope, that's why I don't do random queue AV anymore: because of all the pre-mades. No honor, no gear, no nothing.
12/04/2012 03:57 PMPosted by Urmydinner
Pleb do you speak in quatrains in real life?


yes yes he does...

love ya Pleb ;)
12/04/2012 04:11 PMPosted by Xaeva
The point was that if you go in as a 0 -1500 rated team, many times you will be tossed in with 2000-2400 rated teams. Another show of Blizzard Match making.

No. Not at all. I've seen some 1800 teams while holding a 2k+ MMR, never anything lower.
12/04/2012 02:08 PMPosted by Daxxarri
if you break it down, what does a full oQueue premade bring to the table that is unfair?


I’ll try to break it down as clearly as I can:

Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.

The normal Battleground queue is for players to jump in and play against other players in a similar situation. We realize that it's not a perfect system, and we're still looking at ways to improve normal Battleground queues further. Regardless, it's not meant for organized groups to "pug stomp" and get quick Honor. We have built in outlets for players that want to organize--if a competitive, social experience was really the goal, then there are clear ways to achieve that.

The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP. Perhaps it's been a long time since you've been in a random group, but a lot of players will see that they're up against a premade and simply quit. At best, they suffer through it. To an extent premade groups count on this. Heck, one of the popular addons announces opposing players that appear to have rage quit.

Addons aren’t really a viable solution for botting issues, but we do take those issues seriously and we'll continue our work on improvements to the Battleground system, including better ways to deal with botting and other exploitative gameplay.

What I do not understand is that in 10 man games a 5 man group of organized arena geared players can still effectively "pug stomp" or at least effect the outcome so greatly that it is no different than an OQueue group.

So the question is, "what are you accomplishing by this other than alienating pvpers who want to work on achievments, get honor, or gear up alts without having to slog through bots and road fighters".

It is not like most OQueue CTA premades ever had much of a gear requirement. These aren't T2 players farming graveyards. In fact I have seen much less griefing as an OQueue group than I have with other groups that are not pvp objective based and just farm players while not capping the last flag.

The notion that RBGs and arenas fill this void shows a lack of understanding of "why we fight", the very question posed by this expansion. People fight in bgs in an organized manner because:

1. It is fun. I am not concerned about other people's enjoyment. When I get stomped in a random I am not somehow entitled to be compensated, nor do expect others to as well.
2. There are PVP achievments that are not only not account wide but did not carry over from when achievements were first implemented. Fighting in a group who want to farm AB honor for 4 hours straight puts likeminded people together.
3. When I want to PVP with an organized group but not have the high stakes associated with arena or RBGs, playing randoms is how I prefer to spend my time as I find it relaxing. Saying that my only option for organized PVP is RBG or Arena is essentially admitting that Random BGs should not have the expectation that anyone fight as a team. That is a sad statement of your expectation of players in random BGs.

I continue to find it baffling that in a MMO you discourage grouping in any way. The more people group, the more they want to play. This is the essential essence of positive externalities, something I am sure Blizzard understands.

While you are so concerned about people who are unwilling to group up in a BG and what their experience is like, you are ignoring the experience of the PVPers and their terrible experience of being forced to play with people who do not care about the objectives of the game, or worse, botters.

These randoms who are so harmed have alternatives to gain honor if their PVP experience is so bad:

1. Join groups themselves.
2. Run heroics and convert justice to honor.
3. Continue to run randoms and sometimes get premades, sometimes not.

Us who want to run premades have no such alternative.
12/04/2012 04:02 PMPosted by Dysheki
I think this way therefore everyone thinks like me" is all I see from you. You are unwilling and unable to see that many more people are negatively affected by being curb stomped than you are negatively affected by not being able to do the curb stomping.


i lost my first 94 AV battles. i've lost a lot of
battlegrounds in fact. many more losses are
incoming. i know a lot about getting 'curb stomped'.

here's the thing. those losses were fair. both sides
had the same number of people, all the structures
are appropriately spaced, and both sides had the
opportunity to coordinate, make strategy, and take
advantage of our weakness. did not matter if they
was a full on premade or not. it was fair.

have your own thoughts, that's cool. think as you
will. that too is cool. i just happen to know that
most of the time, i am right, even it that does not
sit well with conventional thinking.

willing to stomp your battleground booty.
able to get my battleground booty stomped.
that's fair.

Cheers.
Pleb.

note:, that i didn't say 'all of the time'.
that would be arrogant. i said,
"most of the time". trying to be
as humble as much as i can muster.
*smiley face*
12/04/2012 04:23 PMPosted by Tryst
What I do not understand is that in 10 man games a 5 man group of organized arena geared players can still effectively "pug stomp" or at least effect the outcome so greatly that it is no different than an OQueue group.

There is a compromise made. This is an MMO and people want to play with each other, Blizzard understands this. However they do not want a group to come in with full control. Like I've said, there is balance to be had. Whether or not 5 people is the right number is up for debate, but the option is there to not be 100% constricting to people who want to play with a few friends.

You are right, 5 could easily control a BG. But not all of the time and not nearly as often as full groups.
12/04/2012 04:06 PMPosted by Dysheki
When we run pre-mades, I`m not gonna lie, most are fast and easy wins. But it`s when you go against another one that people talk on vent about how "That match was so cool", "did you guys see what I did against that guy", "Great win guys! God, this is what I play WoW for" or "That was so close! Next time we`ll surely win". Those are the most fun parts, the easy honor is convenience.

But they are so far and so in between. If this is what you play WoW for then get into some real competitive play. It's available.


Thus my suggestion, if you have read my entire post (which I believe you have, as you`re one of the few people to respond using reason rather than rage). I`m not asking give what we had before back, I enjoyed it but I get that it was not ideal for others.
I wrote, and quote:


We really don`t like to be "rated" or "graded" all the time, you see? An example: imagine I have a full PvE blues friend (being generous here) or just leveled a new alt and I`m not geared in it. Now, I don`t want the chaos and awfulness of PuGs, it ruins MY PvP experience. Yet, he/I can`t run rbgs risking to lose rating, or won`t be accepted in that kind of group (People get too serious when their precious kept score is at stake). I AM FORCED to run "false Player vs Player" in order to qualify for true PvP. To do something that isn`t fun, in order to qualify for fun.

Why can`t we just have the ability to queue a >5 man group, and WoW only matches us with another >5man group (for normal bgs rather than rbgs, getting the honor we need, having no rating to worry about losing). How`s that unbalanced? WoW could warn us when we hit join as group: "Queuing with a group greater than 5 members will get you against a group also greater than 5 members. Are you sure you wish to continue?" so that people don`t mistakenly get stomped with the feature.


Further information was to back that up. Blizz can give us what we want without hurting you in turn. It`s not all ones or zeros in this matter =]
Is there any hope for a mercenary/solo/duo queue ranked battleground?
here's the thing. those losses were fair. both sides
had the same number of people, all the structures
are appropriately spaces, and both sides had the
opportunity to coordinate, make strategy, and take
advantage of our weakness. did not matter if they
was a full on premade or not. it was fair.

No, it's not fair. Not at all. If you have a premade and you're against pugs it is not fair at all. While you have someone barking out orders over vent/mumble/etc they have to stop and type everything out for communication and still read that while battling. That's just silly. Do not think this is even playing ground.

And don't bring up the abomination that is Blizzard voice chat. Since it came out in TBC I've heard one person use it. And they sounded like they were a tin man.
We really don`t like to be "rated" or "graded" all the time, you see? An example: imagine I have a full PvE blues friend (being generous here) or just leveled a new alt and I`m not geared in it. Now, I don`t want the chaos and awfulness of PuGs, it ruins MY PvP experience. Yet, he/I can`t run rbgs risking to lose rating, or won`t be accepted in that kind of group (People get too serious when their precious kept score is at stake). I AM FORCED to run "false Player vs Player" in order to qualify for true PvP. To do something that isn`t fun, in order to qualify for fun.

Why can`t we just have the ability to queue a >5 man group, and WoW only matches us with another >5man group (for normal bgs rather than rbgs, getting the honor we need, having no rating to worry about losing). How`s that unbalanced? WoW could warn us when we hit join as group: "Queuing with a group greater than 5 members will get you against a group also greater than 5 members. Are you sure you wish to continue?" so that people don`t mistakenly get stomped with the feature.

The biggest problem with this is a logistical problem. You would need to have teams that are even, of course, and getting many disparate sized groups together to fight against each other is a difficult task and could lead to large queue times. Then you would have to fall back on allowing single players to queue and fill the cracks which would still lead to the same problems as before (edit: same problems as before being bots and people who aren't that great join the BGs still - which seems to be a sticking point to people here).

It's a nice idea, but I dunno. Hopefully they have enough smart people around to find alternatives.
here's the thing. those losses were fair. both sides
had the same number of people, all the structures
are appropriately spaces, and both sides had the
opportunity to coordinate, make strategy, and take
advantage of our weakness. did not matter if they
was a full on premade or not. it was fair.

No, it's not fair. Not at all. If you have a premade and you're against pugs it is not fair at all. While you have someone barking out orders over vent/mumble/etc they have to stop and type everything out for communication and still read that while battling. That's just silly. Do not think this is even playing ground.

And don't bring up the abomination that is Blizzard voice chat. Since it came out in TBC I've heard one person use it. And they sounded like they were a tin man.


And again, that would be much less of a problem, had the fine gents at Blizzard given us decent voice chat, as we every time ask them for, as there is in any MMO with this kind of budget.
I can't believe anyone who is truly for competitive pvp is against this change I mean really?

If you want competitive pvp you que up with your pre-made for competitive pvp, don't act like your trying to que for randoms and hoping to get competitive pvp against another pre-made, if that's what you were really after you would sign up for the rated games.

Grant it more improvements to the pvp system can and should be made but to really try and justify this addon as making the BG system better?

I'm just here shaking my head at the number of people against this change.
We really don`t like to be "rated" or "graded" all the time, you see? An example: imagine I have a full PvE blues friend (being generous here) or just leveled a new alt and I`m not geared in it. Now, I don`t want the chaos and awfulness of PuGs, it ruins MY PvP experience. Yet, he/I can`t run rbgs risking to lose rating, or won`t be accepted in that kind of group (People get too serious when their precious kept score is at stake). I AM FORCED to run "false Player vs Player" in order to qualify for true PvP. To do something that isn`t fun, in order to qualify for fun.

Why can`t we just have the ability to queue a >5 man group, and WoW only matches us with another >5man group (for normal bgs rather than rbgs, getting the honor we need, having no rating to worry about losing). How`s that unbalanced? WoW could warn us when we hit join as group: "Queuing with a group greater than 5 members will get you against a group also greater than 5 members. Are you sure you wish to continue?" so that people don`t mistakenly get stomped with the feature.

The biggest problem with this is a logistical problem. You would need to have teams that are even, of course, and getting many disparate sized groups together to fight against each other is a difficult task and could lead to large queue times. Then you would have to fall back on allowing single players to queue and fill the cracks which would still lead to the same problems as before.

It's a nice idea, but I dunno. Hopefully they have enough smart people around to find alternatives.


We already face huge queue times. That`s a lesser evil in our opinion, so much wouldn`t change for us. In fact, they would much likely be smaller with a feature like that.

Also, consider queue times for RBGs (about the same logistical problems): They are actually quite small. And those have to consider ratings, whereas what we`re asking for has not.
I have 65k honorable kills throughout my account but most of them were from my "hardcore(term used loosely lol)" pvp days in Vanilla-Wrath. Truthfully, I still want to get to my 100k honorable kill achievement however over Wrath-Present I found myself struggling to pvp in battlegrounds because I am one of the solo players who would get stomped by premades. It because a struggle to stomach any BGs because of the absurdity of bots and premades. Aside from just the skill advantage a coordinated full team has(dont know why you wouldnt want to RBG with a full group for better rewards anyways) it because tiresome to use what precious time I had to play being honored farmed when a premade could have won but decided to just hold the last flag or not cap a point. What was my other option? get the 30minute deserter debuff and be punished for not letting myself be honored farmed? Eitherway I lost the playtime I had set aside=/. I gave up all hope of getting the achievement because of this major frustration and bots.

As for people who ask what the difference between a full BG premade and a group of 5 players queuing together I can tell you it is huge! If I come across a full premade it seems everyone on our random team just gives up with cries of "just let them cap the flag" or "sit in the graveyard and dont rez!" However, if a single group of 5 queues more often than not I have found I can ask my fellow randoms to help coordinate and even if 2 or 3 out of the whole random BG team decide to help suddenly we have 3-5 coordinated players vs their 5 and it becomes a fun mini skirmish within the BG. A huge difference between a complete premade stomp fest and a hard fought battle where we still have a chance.

Im happy about this change and look forward to stepping my foot back inside some BGs for the first time in quite a while. Now if only we can find some way to speed up the elimination of BoTs we may really be getting somewhere=).
I wish people would stop grasping at the "we just want a challenge/better group pvp environment" argument so as to cling to some sort of moral high ground.

You did it for the easy wins and fast honor. It's okay. We all like to win lots and this was a convenient way to do it. But it's over now and its time to take your place in the unorganized slog that is normal BGS. Hope you enjoyed it while it lasted. For those of you who are legitimately looking for a challenge, Rated BGS exist and they would love to have you.

If that doesn't suit, you can still grab four other friends and queue with them for normals. A 5-man premade is more than enough to make a massive difference. Hell, I've done it with me and one other player numerous times.
12/04/2012 03:37 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We love a premade PvP, and we love challenges. You guys could've come out with a premade PvP random battleground where we can match against other 10m/15m/40m premades PvP and go all out. Provide less honor point/conquest point. It's like an RBG, but without the ratings involved. Doesn't this solves all the problem everyone's having?


We're open to exploring the possibility of creating a pre-made queue for Battlegrounds, or improving the War Game system in some way.


While this might be a great idea for large population servers, low population servers will have a more difficult time being able to participate in such events.

Join the Conversation