Story Brainstorm Session: Night Elves' "Fix"

Story Forum
Post Limit:

So, doom and gloom aside? I've worked out my rage, and honestly.. I'm just enjoying the game.


The pandaren rubbed off on you, didn't they?

But seriously, good for you. If you're not enjoying what you're playing, what's the point?

Short Story
Remember when you're threading through all of these rationalizations, that Blizzard could have told any story that they wanted to at that time. The faction leader short stories were on the whole good though, not only for shining a light on some issues that people had questions about, but for showing the leader's worth as a leader in a tense or dangerous situation. We got to know them better, and respect them. Tyrande's short story is an anomaly in this regard, because it makes her look weak. Now, you could make a facts and circumstances argument, sure, but I still want to know why Blizzard chose this specific situation, and this specific playout, in favor of say, giving us some real guidance as to what the Night Elves were doing about the Horde.


The main problem with the short story was that it was misrepresented initially. Lore fans got hyped to see Tyrande back in action, and when Blizzard decided to make it a dual leader short story, these same people felt slighted. Honestly, the presentation of Tyrande in the short story is fine; the only issue was that she had to share the spotlight with Malfurion who, it seems, most Tyrande fans loathe.

Model: Hair
Your argument makes sense until any combat makes the hairstyle come undone. Then the problem is back.

Model: Shoes
I'm still trying to figure out what kind of riding shoe has a heel quite that large. I could understand something like a cowboy boot I guess, but the heel on this goes quite a bit beyond that. I'd challenge someone to run a mile in that, provided that I could prepare a liability waiver.

Model: Dress
What's wrong with putting runes on armor? Why is the dress preferable?


The clothing argument is silly. Garrosh wears nothing protecting his chest, Vol'jin wears only a sash, Sylvanas is wearing nothing but leather pants and a leather halter top, etc. It's simply a stylistic choice. Hell, I raid with some Blood Elves that wear practically nothing at all. The art team wanted to give her a recognizable look, and that's what we got.

WOTA
Again, we know the facts and circumstances, but the presentation is that she's a burden on the group. This is the matter that actually counts.


From a specific point of view, yes, I can see your point. On the other hand, when she isn't trapped, she's a boon to the group. The main problem I see here is that, rather than sticking out among the group, like Illidan, she seems like just another member of the group who needs help from time to time. Honestly, though, considering this was 10,000 years in the past, it should be a moot point. We should be focusing on Tyrande's strengths and weaknesses in the present, not picking apart who she was 10000 years ago.

A Little Patience: Recycled Scenario.
No, this is not an excuse, not after Cataclysm. Blizzard can't just develop a fully fleshed out Horde storyline and then say "we ran out of time!" when Alliance players come back and ask why parts were left out, and why the bad parts were left in.


There have been whole threads dedicated to this. We've all beaten the horse to death by now. It had poor execution; let's hope Blizzard heard the feedback. Let's move on.
There have been whole threads dedicated to this. We've all beaten the horse to death by now. It had poor execution; let's hope Blizzard heard the feedback. Let's move on.


They're not going to listen. People feel justified to make repeating threads. If this forum was moderated like General Discussion it would be deleted.

From a specific point of view, yes, I can see your point. On the other hand, when she isn't trapped, she's a boon to the group. The main problem I see here is that, rather than sticking out among the group, like Illidan, she seems like just another member of the group who needs help from time to time. Honestly, though, considering this was 10,000 years in the past, it should be a moot point. We should be focusing on Tyrande's strengths and weaknesses in the present, not picking apart who she was 10000 years ago.


WOTA should of been a raid to do it justice. IMO anyways.
12/04/2012 04:30 PMPosted by Lorthuron
They're not going to listen. People feel justified to make repeating threads. If this forum was moderated like General Discussion it would be deleted.


/shrug I've been arguing on these forums for a couple of months now. I understand. We're just a stubborn lot. =)

WOTA should of been a raid to do it justice. IMO anyways.


Agreed, but that would have meant one more patch of Cataclysm. I am not sure I could have stomached more of that expansion. MoP feels like such a breath of fresh air in comparison.
12/04/2012 04:33 PMPosted by Abal
I've been arguing on these forums for a couple of months now. I understand. We're just a stubborn lot. =)


I've mainly been quietly reading until recently, but I agree. I am very stubborn person unless/until I see a good explanation or some nice facts that refute my point of view. (Of course, these things can often be relative, so an opinion to one person can be a fact to another person.) Most of my posts also seem to be ignored, so either people don't think I need correcting or I just blend into the background.

However, I would like to mention that the post on page 3 about Tyrande's model made me stop hating it. I still don't like it, and still think it should be changed at least a little bit (the eyes freak me out), but I'm not angry about it anymore. Thanks!

And on the main topic, I get the feeling that the thing most night elf fans are upset about is that night elves don't feel fierce or unique anymore. (My opinion and example - Tyrande went from an armor-clad priestess of the Moon who fought up close to her enemies to a sparkly woman in a more human-priestess-like dress and high heels who never shows up near the front lines in-game.)

I'll try not to put too much of my opinion on here, but I think that bringing back some 'dishonorable'/vicious ambush scenes where the night elves use (and show) their racial connection to the forest would at least ease fans' anger.
For example: Have a quest where the player and night elf NPCs attack an orcish caravan, rooting it in place and attacking alongside wild wloves and 'sabers to tear the defenders apart. (Bonus ferocity points if 'tearing apart' is literal and if the roots do this as well.)

And on the main topic, I get the feeling that the thing most night elf fans are upset about is that night elves don't feel fierce or unique anymore. (My opinion and example - Tyrande went from an armor-clad priestess of the Moon who fought on the front lines to a sparkly woman in a dress and high heels who never shows up near the front lines in-game.)

I'll try not to put too much of my opinion on here, but I think that bringing back some 'dishonorable'/vicious ambush scenes where the night elves use (and show) their racial connection to the forest would at least ease fans' anger.
For example: Have a quest where the player and night elf NPCs attack an orcish caravan, rooting it in place and attacking alongside wild wloves and 'sabers to tear the defenders apart. (Bonus ferocity points if 'tearing apart' is literal and if the roots do this as well.)


I think this is reasonable, and honestly, I expect to see more of the Night Elves in the future. Ferlion and I discussed this in another thread;the Night Elves are going to take center stage eventually. It is an inevitability, especially with their former Queen still lurking out there in the deeps and the mysteries surrounding both the Emerald Dream and Elune. The question is how will they be presented? Will it be a return to form? Or will it further highlight the perceived disconnect between WC3 Night Elves and the Night Elves of WoW? A lot of Night Elven fans fear the latter, and believe that's the track we're on. I prefer a bit more optimism; then again, though, I haven't been nearly as disappointed with WoW's storyline as others have been.
The main problem with the short story was that it was misrepresented initially. Lore fans got hyped to see Tyrande back in action, and when Blizzard decided to make it a dual leader short story, these same people felt slighted. Honestly, the presentation of Tyrande in the short story is fine; the only issue was that she had to share the spotlight with Malfurion who, it seems, most Tyrande fans loathe.


Well...

I didn't like the short story....But I didn't hate it either.

But I'm lenient when it comes to writing Elves, because it's extremely hard to write long lived characters. It's why Elves either come off as perfect little angels OR so good at what they do that a few hundred elves can stand against thousands of Orcs.

More importantly, Tyrande herself has been hung up on Elune since WC3. Like Peter in heroes, her power has replaced any personality and character she once had. It's my belief that Seeds of Faith actually tried to address that, by having Tyrande act outside and without Elune's powers... And I think they just failed.

As for Kyalin's earlier point about time not being a factor after the Alliance fiasco in Cata? I can't argue that...but they have, again, decided that the Horde story and reformation is more impotant. And, in fact, I'd go so far as to say they see MoP and Cata as two parts of the same story arc, since Deathwing was largely a plot device instead of a character.

Which is why High King is happening off screen, and why the Horde leaders are getting all this spotlight, when the Alliance leaders just get side apperances. The one exception being Jaina, who...let's face it....is acting as part of the Horde story because the fan base was vocal enough about neutral factions always turning a blind eye.

And again, it's hard to argue that the Horde story isn't currently the more important and engaging one than the Alliance. It sucks, Blizzard shouldn't get a pass on it, but it's the way it is, and Blizzard, much like a large section of the fanbase, doesn't seem to be able to give the Alliance a story.

On the other hand, The Arny of Light is likely going to be heavily Alliance themed, and that's enough for people to say "Yeah, but that was all Alliance" despite it not being Alliance.

It is what it is.
12/04/2012 05:28 PMPosted by Abal
I think this is reasonable, and honestly, I expect to see more of the Night Elves in the future. Ferlion and I discussed this in another thread;the Night Elves are going to take center stage eventually. It is an inevitability, especially with their former Queen still lurking out there in the deeps and the mysteries surrounding both the Emerald Dream and Elune. The question is how will they be presented? Will it be a return to form? Or will it further highlight the perceived disconnect between WC3 Night Elves and the Night Elves of WoW? A lot of Night Elven fans fear the latter, and believe that's the track we're on. I prefer a bit more optimism; then again, though, I haven't been nearly as disappointed with WoW's storyline as others have been.


Nope. That will be human centered. Azshara will do something that pisses off Stormwind and the majority of Alliance soldiers in the that expansion will be humans, with a minor scattering of other races. Given Blizzard's track record, a lot of Night elves will be killed with barely a mention by anyone and she will focus on wiping out Stormwind rather than Teldrassil or the Kadorei. To do otherwise would take away the spotlight that's on humans, and face it, Blizzard still thinks of this game as Orcs vs Humans.
I think this is reasonable, and honestly, I expect to see more of the Night Elves in the future. Ferlion and I discussed this in another thread;the Night Elves are going to take center stage eventually. It is an inevitability, especially with their former Queen still lurking out there in the deeps and the mysteries surrounding both the Emerald Dream and Elune. The question is how will they be presented? Will it be a return to form? Or will it further highlight the perceived disconnect between WC3 Night Elves and the Night Elves of WoW? A lot of Night Elven fans fear the latter, and believe that's the track we're on. I prefer a bit more optimism; then again, though, I haven't been nearly as disappointed with WoW's storyline as others have been.


Nope. That will be human centered. Azshara will do something that pisses off Stormwind and the majority of Alliance soldiers in the that expansion will be humans, with a minor scattering of other races. Given Blizzard's track record, a lot of Night elves will be killed with barely a mention by anyone and she will focus on wiping out Stormwind rather than Teldrassil or the Kadorei. To do otherwise would take away the spotlight that's on humans, and face it, Blizzard still thinks of this game as Orcs vs Humans.


This is a viable fear as well.. I mean, let's face it...

Humans being in the forefront in pandaland is frankly stupid when there are Night Elves who are old enough to remember stories their grandparents told about Panderia, especially when the Temples of Elune actually have texts from that time period.

I mean, I get it.. A war going on and all, and the humans and orcs are apparently so much more powerful that the other races just don't lend enough strength to matter... But that's a stupid idea in and of itself, so...I guess I really don't get it.
I really doubt Azshara will get Humanity's attention. We'll have a good amount but Night Elves will and SHOULD. Honestly it makes much more sense. I mean I have a grand plan for Azshara and her naga if I had my way but....Night Elves related more to the Naga then any other race.
The thing I honestly feel about Night Elves is that they are far too integrated to the Alliance. In warcraft 3, Night Elves were xenophobic, jingoistic, and savage warrior women and druids who fiercely protected their lands from outsiders, refusing to take chances of negotiating with outsiders unless the situation become extremely dire. Even at Hyjal, Tyrande (who obviously wears the pants in the relationship) was against working with the Horde and Alliance in fighting the Demons.

That they should have remained. In vanilla, their alliance with the... well... Alliance should have been one of convenience and mutual benefit, rather than out of Ideals and morals. They should have been less welcoming of outsiders (i.e restricting access to non-night elf Alliance NPCs in Darnassus and other Nelf settlements, Racism against non-nelves, and refusal of military aid in certain parts of Ashenvale (until cata, that is)) as well as being more savage fighters (Orc corpses strung up at the Ashenvale/Barrens border as warning, emphasis on sentinels, and Elune's more blood thirsty nature.)

On the Otherside, the other Alliance races should distrust the Night Elves to an extent (like how the rest of the Horde distrusted the Forsaken), viewing them as "unreliable" and fair-weather friends. And the Night Elves, more or less, would not care what they thought, but would provide token military assistance here and there.

Basically, while the Night Elves would be part of the Alliance and provide aid to the other Alliance races, their primary concern would be their lands and their people. Less "nice and happy tree huggers" and more "Imperious and Savage forrest elves"

While I'm sure this image of Night Elves is more extreme than many people would like.
12/04/2012 08:52 PMPosted by Arieus
xenophobic, jingoistic,


Y'know unless the game materials described them this way, I'm not sure it's fair to use these terms. Arrogant perhaps, and insular, but they didn't hate the humans and orcs becuse they were different, they hated them because they were invading and killing.
12/04/2012 08:57 PMPosted by Skytotem
xenophobic, jingoistic,


Y'know unless the game materials described them this way, I'm not sure it's fair to use these terms. Arrogant perhaps, and insular, but they didn't hate the humans and orcs becuse they were different, they hated them because they were invading and killing.


Well, insular and Arrogant then. You get the picture though
I like Night Elves though being on the Alliance.
12/04/2012 09:10 PMPosted by Lorthuron
I like Night Elves though being on the Alliance.


They'd still be Alliance aligned, just less integrated with the Eastern Kingdom side.
I like Night Elves though being on the Alliance.


They'd still be Alliance aligned, just less integrated with the Eastern Kingdom side.


I dunno..I just think they need attention...and love well written love then less integration.

I would make gnomes non playable just a faction on the Alliance.

SUCK IT GNOMES
12/04/2012 09:19 PMPosted by Lorthuron
I dunno..I just think they need attention...and love well written love then less integration.


I think it might be difficult to write the night elves well without their central themes and a lot of that isn't exactly alliance ideals. What I think we need is for

a) Tyrande needs to start acting like the 10,00 year old leader she is. Stop bringing debates into a basically monarchy when making decisions (Elune told her to follow the ghost wolf. What a load of crap). Plus lose the troll voice
b) Have Tyrande militarize the druids and mages and make them play at least some sort of role in night elf society.
c) Make Malfurion choose his people or the circle.
d) Make Shandris and Jarod the war heroes do something during war.
e) Make the night elves fierce and let them retake Ashenvale
f) don't wreck Elune

These aren't all my points or very in depth plus some of my terminology is wrong but I'm tired.

I would make gnomes non playable just a faction on the Alliance.

SUCK IT GNOMES


You just offended like 0.2% of the playerbase.
I'm actually for Night Elf integration into the Alliance, but I do care about their national and cultural identity being retained, along with them working in concert, rather than in tandem, with the rest of the Alliance. In 5.1, we're seeing some of this, but it's colored with this idea that fierce means stupid, and honestly I don't why Blizzard felt that it was necessary to make that connection.

On the other hand, The Arny of Light is likely going to be heavily Alliance themed, and that's enough for people to say "Yeah, but that was all Alliance" despite it not being Alliance.


I feel the same way. I mean, look at how many people think Wrath was Alliance-themed. Sure, the villain was the prince of Lordaeron, the new Lich King was the Highlord of Stormwind, and the Argent Crusade was based heavily on the Knights of the Silver Hand, but, ultimately, I thought it was pretty even.

The Army of Light storyline is definitely going to have a heavy Alliance flavor, though, with Velen, Anduin, and likely Turalyon and Alleria at the forefront. We'll have Horde members that stand out, probably Dezco, Liadrin, and maybe Baine if he makes the transition to a Sunwalker, but it's going to feel a lot more Alliance-themed than Wrath did.

Nope. That will be human centered. Azshara will do something that pisses off Stormwind and the majority of Alliance soldiers in the that expansion will be humans, with a minor scattering of other races. Given Blizzard's track record, a lot of Night elves will be killed with barely a mention by anyone and she will focus on wiping out Stormwind rather than Teldrassil or the Kadorei. To do otherwise would take away the spotlight that's on humans, and face it, Blizzard still thinks of this game as Orcs vs Humans.


This is what I was talking about when I said I was more optimistic than some players. =p

You all want to see me rage about Blizzard slighting the Night Elves? This is how it will happen. I just cannot imagine the Night Elves not being front and center in an expansion that deals with Azsahra, especially if she's the primary antagonist. It would be so monumentally ridiculous that I barely have the vocabulary to express how upset I would be. I would faceplam so hard there would be a permanent groove in my face. I expect Stormwind to play a role, of course, but Tyrande and Malfurion need to be the ones facing down Azshara.

Humans being in the forefront in pandaland is frankly stupid when there are Night Elves who are old enough to remember stories their grandparents told about Panderia, especially when the Temples of Elune actually have texts from that time period.

I mean, I get it.. A war going on and all, and the humans and orcs are apparently so much more powerful that the other races just don't lend enough strength to matter... But that's a stupid idea in and of itself, so...I guess I really don't get it.


Eh, Mists of Pandaria is about two things: Pandaria and the War. The Pandaren, who should be front and center, more or less are and act as a balance between the extremes that are Varian and the Humans and Garrosh and the Orcs. I am content with Humans vs Orcs so long as this is the last expansion for awhile that deals with it. Humans and Orcs need to make up the bulk of their factions since they are the greatest powers of those factions, but in the future, I would like to see them supporting their allies rather than the other way around.

Basically, while the Night Elves would be part of the Alliance and provide aid to the other Alliance races, their primary concern would be their lands and their people. Less "nice and happy tree huggers" and more "Imperious and Savage forrest elves"


This would have been great at the beginning of WoW, and I, too, have mulled over this very possibility. Unfortunately, I think the ship has long sailed on this idea.

I'm actually for Night Elf integration into the Alliance, but I do care about their national and cultural identity being retained, along with them working in concert, rather than in tandem, with the rest of the Alliance. In 5.1, we're seeing some of this, but it's colored with this idea that fierce means stupid, and honestly I don't why Blizzard felt that it was necessary to make that connection.


While I agree, I would like to expand upon this and say that all of the races need to have their national and cultural identity retained. The Humans, Orcs, and arguably the Pandaren are all trucking along fine, but in the future, I would like to see the culture of the other ten races in a more thorough way.
See, strongest doesn't mean as strong as the other nations combined. I don't mind humans and orcs being stronger. I mind them behind worth multiple other racial kingdoms.

To have humans and orcs be the bulk of the alliance indicates that they alone are more than half the respective might of the horde and alliance. And that's stupid

I put this in another thread, but if sw or org can field 50 shops AMD a thousand men, darn and if and tb should each ne able to field 40 ships and 750 men.

Join the Conversation