How about putting PvP first! PvE is easy!

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12/04/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Lauracröft
@Legion: What you are talking about is players cheating. They should be banned! Another example why PvP should come first to balance the game out.


10 million players and probably about 200 GMs. Not going to happen.

Still stands that it is far easier to /afk bot for a season for gear than to actually play the game, and there is no equivalent of that in PvE. Probably another reason they aren't going to bother with PvP. The staffing cost to police it would be astronomical with such a gigantic player base. Better to just let us cheat and ban the obvious ones who win trade with garbage W/L records matched with high MMR ratings.

I'd rather bot than play random BGs filled with Mal geared players while I'm starting mid-season with contenders and quest greens. Best way to "fix" PvP for the average player and draw more people in is to put an ilevel cap for random BGs so you don't have Mal geared players running around with a T2 weapon one-shotting your player base right back into PvE.

Fix that, then work on fixing everything else.
12/04/2012 09:34 AMPosted by Shamadelic
I don't think bosses would complain if warlocks were to be too OP
After this post, i'm 100% sure PVE takes no skill and it is played by dumb people.

Look, all those pve players, they can't even interpret a text, Laura is giving a good point and i totally agree with him/her but those "players" just bash and talk no sense things.

What happens if PVE gets a little unbalanced. The Mantid Empress will come here on forums telling how much damage warlocks did on her??? I guess NOT!

There's a reason why League of Legends is more played than WoW since 2011. E-SPORT IS GREAT. IT BRINGS MONEY TOO. Or why a free game would make people spend money on it?
@Legion: Well thank you for your opinion. Just like in PvE, gear does not equal skill. BTW bot'ing is not the answer. That's just easy mode. Whats the point of that. Don't you play for the challenge? They don't need to put a item level cap on bg's that's what bg's are for. I would like them to see. Them bring back that you can buy your pvp set before level cap. I don't understand what difference it would make. The same could apply to dungeons. You just can't equip it till level cap. Why even hand them out before you are 90?
12/04/2012 09:53 AMPosted by Vesthis
They don't need to put PVP first. They just need to put pvp anywhere.
12/04/2012 10:01 AMPosted by Tracïy
That's because around 1% of the wow population plays arena. Maybe at most 10% plays BGs/RatedBGs. That leaves 90% of the population that likes to PVE, that's why.


I'm willing to bet there are more people who do arena than there are people who do progression raiding
12/04/2012 06:24 PMPosted by Calissto
PvP does not need to trump PvE or vice versa.


How about putting PvP first! PvE is easy


Sigh...

Soooo you either actually think the first remark in which you should've made a much more constructive post...

Orrrr you believe the title of your thread and think the game should be balanced around a small fraction of the active players, although that will never happen.

Nice Job!


I don't know... but I'm pretty sure that Blizzard hosts PvP based events in real life. I mean, if PvP came as "whatever" addition to the game, then why bother making championships around it? Why can't you put some effort into balancing things that you are clearly making players enjoy. When have you ever seen blizzard host a "SLAY A DRAGON THE FASTEST YOU CAN" Event? PvE is boring and repetitive. I don't like it at all, the only reason I did it in cataclysm was to get a F****** trinket to use in PvP.

To sum up, they give PvE the pritority when it comes to balancing, but they also make and host PvP events such as Shanghai most recently. So... why not balance PvP if you are going to make it a sport?
I haven't really read the discussion thus far but, I don't think it's fair to say PvE takes no skill.

It's really difficult to compare a group of 25 people attempting to clear a boss on hard mode pre-nerf(or competing for realm/world firsts), to say a group of 3 people fighting a group of another 3 people.

On the flip side, I think PvP is faceroll up to a point. I'm talking from last season, but you could basically faceroll people who didn't have l33t PvE gear/play the right classes... but when you're fighting opponents who do have the PvE gear and play awesome tier comps...then the only remaining aspect of the equation is skill.

They both have different skill requirements, and different expectations but neither of them are easy (one requires you to play your class like a !@#$ing robot and not make a single mistake, where as the other requies you to react to what your opponents do. There is also a fair amount of enginuity in PvE, in terms of devising strategies and stuff but...I'll stop for now).

TL;DR: Both are skillfull, but those fags who clear like half the bosses on hard mode after a slew of nerfs and think they're amazing need to get a reality check. Same goes for anybody who's sub gladiator and thinks he's a playa.


There's a reason why League of Legends is more played than WoW since 2011.


Because it's free to play maybe? DURRRRRRR!!!!
12/04/2012 08:37 PMPosted by Ovenmitz
Still stands that it is far easier to /afk bot for a season for gear than to actually play the game, and there is no equivalent of that in PvE.

botting bgs for honor will get you the pvp equivalent of dungeon/jp gear, though.

you can't bot serious arena for conquest, and you can't bot serious raiding for current-level PVE gear either. you CAN bot bgs, yes, but doing random heroics doesn't take much more effort, honestly...


You can get halfway to the conquest cap every week botting random BGs.
12/04/2012 08:25 PMPosted by Lauracröft
@Legion: Well thank you for your opinion. Just like in PvE, gear does not equal skill. BTW bot'ing is not the answer. That's just easy mode. Whats the point of that. Don't you play for the challenge? They don't need to put a item level cap on bg's that's what bg's are for. I would like them to see. Them bring back that you can buy your pvp set before level cap. I don't understand what difference it would make. The same could apply to dungeons. You just can't equip it till level cap. Why even hand them out before you are 90?


Until you ilevel cap random honor BGs, your PvP will always be a minigame or sideshow to the average WoW player, and they will never care enough to get behind balancing it first over PvE.

I PvP on all my character, but the way the item progression works in PvP is absolutely punishing to late adopters or new 90s and really shows how little skill the average BG PvP takes (arena is different). I saw a fresh 90 ret paladin blow wings and beat on a mal geared warrior with second wind and defensive stance while the warrior stood there doing nothing but spamming /spit. He was just standing there and the ret couldn't break his regeneration. That's a joke. That warrior shouldn't even be allowed into the BG with the gear he was wearing.

You also can't even begin to balance this nonsense until you get players on at least close to an even ilevel. Any time someone gets blown up by another class, they come and QQ on the forums without realizing the warlock that just globalled them had a T2 weapon and full Mal. I have a fresh 90 mage and I certainly don't feel OP getting globalled in WSG by geared rets and rogues that I supposedly counter. Get everyone close to even and then figure out what needs to be nerfed and what should be buffed.

It takes a real masochist streak to honor grind PvP vs PvE, which is why I don't blame botters at all.
12/04/2012 07:51 PMPosted by Caradagaita
What happens if PVE gets a little unbalanced. The Mantid Empress will come here on forums telling how much damage warlocks did on her??? I guess NOT!


If PvE is unbalanced then some classes do not get taken... full stop.

For all those that say you can AFK for gear in PvE, no you can't.... if you're talking about LFR then the equal equivalent is all those damned bots in random BGs.

For those saying PvE is easy.... where are your heroic raid boss kills? Sure you can listen to DBM telling you that X is happening soon... but it doesn't move you or your 24 buddies out of the fire for you.

WoW was designed as PvE game first, with PvP only coming later on. Other games people have quoted are designed as purely PvP games.... not to mention people whine about balance on their forums too....
@Legion: Well thank you for your opinion. Just like in PvE, gear does not equal skill. BTW bot'ing is not the answer. That's just easy mode. Whats the point of that. Don't you play for the challenge? They don't need to put a item level cap on bg's that's what bg's are for. I would like them to see. Them bring back that you can buy your pvp set before level cap. I don't understand what difference it would make. The same could apply to dungeons. You just can't equip it till level cap. Why even hand them out before you are 90?


Until you ilevel cap random honor BGs, your PvP will always be a minigame or sideshow to the average WoW player, and they will never care enough to get behind balancing it first over PvE.

I PvP on all my character, but the way the item progression works in PvP is absolutely punishing to late adopters or new 90s and really shows how little skill the average BG PvP takes (arena is different). I saw a fresh 90 ret paladin blow wings and beat on a mal geared warrior with second wind and defensive stance while the warrior stood there doing nothing but spamming /spit. He was just standing there and the ret couldn't break his regeneration. That's a joke. That warrior shouldn't even be allowed into the BG with the gear he was wearing.

You also can't even begin to balance this nonsense until you get players on at least close to an even ilevel. Any time someone gets blown up by another class, they come and QQ on the forums without realizing the warlock that just globalled them had a T2 weapon and full Mal. I have a fresh 90 mage and I certainly don't feel OP getting globalled in WSG by geared rets and rogues that I supposedly counter. Get everyone close to even and then figure out what needs to be nerfed and what should be buffed.

It takes a real masochist streak to honor grind PvP vs PvE, which is why I don't blame botters at all.


I have to disagree and say that getting full honor gear +upgrades (twice) was ALOT less painful to me than grinding out a half way decent pve set (once). RNG probably being the biggest offender.

Crafted gear helps, but I agree that the gear differences this xpac are far too high. If thats the price I have to pay to not have to run through Dragon Soul every week and pray in futility to the rng gods for my 1% drop chance trinket to drop, SO BE IT! Just suck it up and die repeatedly, or go man the cannons/demos/etc and be useful. You can usually find SOMEONE to beat in 2s while in full crafted gear as well (even if you have to drop to 1-1.2k mmr to do it).

They put arenas and random bgs on the same cap so you wouldnt have to see so many fully geared people looking to finish their cap off. Some people do bgs for fun though... Perhaps there should be a queue for gold instead of honor/conquest option. This would put them in a different queue from you while giving pvp'ers a way to make some damn money.

As for putting pvp first, it is a good idea that will never happen. Honestly, I would like to see pve fights that resembled pvp combat more. Fights that require cc, bosses/adds that interrupt your casts randomly but can be juked, healers that need to be cc'ed while you burst his friends down, etc. These are existing game mechanics that are alot more fun than being turned into a gimmicky amber eating robot that kills his team mates unless you understand the niche mechanics of that one fight. If these pvp mechanics were more implemented in pve, then this game would be more balanced for everyone. It would also make pve more fun than your usual tank, spank, know mechanics nonsense...at least for me.
12/04/2012 10:56 AMPosted by Phamous
Save the dragons! Stop PvE!


NICE ... my new favorite quote !

To add I don't know why pvp isn't first, i mean look at the arena tourny this year ..a prize for over $100k ... arena gets so much more sponsorship then raiding (challenge mode) does.

From a "money" aspect you think you would want to keep the pvpers a little more happier.
in the end though, this game will always be balanced around pve, the majority of the subs are pve and could care less if pvp is gutted to the ground
Pretty sure the OP is trolling guys. He doesn't even understand how character power increases, scaling, class variety and other concepts integral to RPGs prevent balancing.
First you can buy your way through a raid! That's really no different that bot'ing. You can do the same with arena's, rbg's, and other aspect of the game you like. However that's not the point of this thread. The point is the balancing issue between the classes. Check out the link http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/maximum-dps There is almost a 23k difference between the top of the list and the bottom. 6k difference between 1# and 2# (lol). Not to mention quite a few drops from one level to the next. There is NO balance not even close. Certain classes do not even get into raids! That's a bunch of crap. Why have a class if you can't do anything with it?

By putting PvP first to balance out the classes. You will eliminate a lot the imbalance issues. Have a player choose between Damage, Survivability, and maneuverability.

Survivability: Is not damage! It's a utility designed to keep you or a friendly to live longer. Ice block, Bubble, and AMS. Are some examples of survivability!.

Maneuverability: Is really a bridge to help you survive. And help you to get into position to do damage. Examples Blink, Disengage, Charge, and Pounce. You can use maneuverability to get into trouble or out of it.

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