Is destro stronger than demo in aoe now?

Warlock
I consistently pulled ~150k dps on HoF LFR trash last night with a lot of pvp gear. I usually average ~50k-100k dps or less as demo. Not sure what Affliction AoE is like.

But anyway, I think that my demo spec is bugged? I swear I've seen my Hellfire and Harvest Life only tick for 600-700 (yes 700 dmg!) per mob... when this happens, my dps drops down to about 40k.
I think it depends on what trash pack you're talking about. If its a really large one, the damage caps of most AoE spells will come into play. After a certain number of targets the AoE will begin to do less damage per target; rain of fire, hellfire, blizzard and most other AoEs work like this. (or they used to. I think they still do.)

I'd assume that if the pack was large enough destro could pull ahead of demo because Fire and Brimstone doesn't work like a normal AoE, it seems to just send a copy of the spell to every target, so it could bypass the cap.
This happened in the first group of trash in MSV. Haven't tried demo in HoF trash yet. Never heard of that damage cap before, just kind of odd because other people were still pulling 100k dps. But like you said, this so called damage cap does not apply to all AoE...so that might be it.
Large packs of AoE Destro is probably better. FnB immo, FnB conflags, FnB incins over and over with RoF ticking then spam tab shadowburn when they're all low for 300k+ hits to kill every add is a LOT of damage. Destro just needs large packs for FnB incin to regen you more embers than it used.
11/29/2012 08:51 AMPosted by Garadine
This happened in the first group of trash in MSV.


That's why. Those mobs have a 90% reduction to AoE damage when they're close to the larger ones. I'm not sure how much it affects destro, though I know that as Affliction, SB:SoC+Harvest Life is the way to go on those trash packs.

Go into HoF and try demo on the AoE trash packs in there. I guarantee that if you do it right, you'll do a lot more as demo. I've broken 600k dps on those trash packs.
11/29/2012 09:19 AMPosted by Vreivai
This happened in the first group of trash in MSV.


That's why. Those mobs have a 90% reduction to AoE damage when they're close to the larger ones. I'm not sure how much it affects destro, though I know that as Affliction, SB:SoC+Harvest Life is the way to go on those trash packs.

Go into HoF and try demo on the AoE trash packs in there. I guarantee that if you do it right, you'll do a lot more as demo. I've broken 600k dps on those trash packs.


Oh ty. Makes me feel dumb lol.

But then again, I have not raided since MoP except for LFR so I could care less about the mechanics. Will definitely try demo in HoF.
FnB doesn't really count as an AoE spell. It's just a ton of copies of a single target spell. I do stupid amounts of AoE damage on that pull and on the big pulls before the first boss in HoF using FnB immo, RoF, FnB incin, FnB conflag and tab shadowburn.
If you're talking maximum AoE damage then it's Demo. No competition. On the AoE packs in HoF I generally end at 300-400k and spike at around 650k. Have full fury going in, run in and pop dark soul+service felguard and have them both Fel Storm, then in meta do double chaos wave+hellfire+void ray.
But who wants to play Demo pshhh
Destro AoE is good but it's much more clunky than Demonology's. Having to click Fire and Brimstone before every single spell is really REALLY annoying. Demonology's AoE is fluid and does much more damage in most cases.
11/29/2012 01:34 PMPosted by Loktronotron
But who wants to play Demo pshhh


Hey now, Demo is my baby. I tried out destro btw after seeing what you said in that other forum post. I like it, and did fine, but my demo is still a bit higher because I play it so well. Thanks for the help though! I like understanding all the specs.
Yeah that's how Affliction always was for me. Even though it's better I've just been playing Destro for so long and enjoy it so much that my Destro DPS still kills my Affliction DPS.
11/29/2012 01:30 PMPosted by Rahl
If you're talking maximum AoE damage then it's Demo. No competition. On the AoE packs in HoF I generally end at 300-400k and spike at around 650k. Have full fury going in, run in and pop dark soul+service felguard and have them both Fel Storm, then in meta do double chaos wave+hellfire+void ray.


Don't forget your Carrion Wave!

I really wish they would change Void ray to a cone instead of the beam.. its so hard to reliably hit things with it i hardly use it. Any tips?
11/29/2012 01:30 PMPosted by Rahl
If you're talking maximum AoE damage then it's Demo. No competition

If you're talking about fights like Heroic Wind Lord, then you're wrong, I was on par for beating Demo and Affliction on that fight numerous times...ending up at 420k on our kill.

11/29/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Fielton
Destro AoE is good but it's much more clunky than Demonology's. Having to click Fire and Brimstone before every single spell is really REALLY annoying. Demonology's AoE is fluid and does much more damage in most cases.


Macros do wonders for that.
I need to play with Service, I have always run GoSup.

Any trash pack with high HP mobs, ensure you tab doom on them all, especially with the 25% buff we got on it.
11/30/2012 10:28 AMPosted by Kodyxoxo
If you're talking about fights like Heroic Wind Lord, then you're wrong, I was on par for beating Demo and Affliction on that fight numerous times...ending up at 420k on our kill.


Then get a better Demo warlock in your raid. I'm not bashing Destro, or your skill as a player, or even your opinion on this. I'm just saying Demo is THE AoE spec. Havoc+FnB is nice and all, but having Doom that crits for 300k running on every target PLUS 300k chaos waves every few seconds? Sorry, but Destro just can't compete with that.

Now for fights with 2-3 targets, yes I would maybe side with Destro there.
I wasn't comparing myself to warlocks in my raid, I was comparing myself to all Warlocks.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Heart_of_Fear/Wind_Lord_Mel%27jarak/25H/Destruction_Warlock/

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Heart_of_Fear/Wind_Lord_Mel%27jarak/25H/Demonology_Warlock/

The kill we got was a bad attempt for me and I STILL got 417k, which is beating every Demo lock on that fight apart from 7, on a bad attempt. Despite what you think, Demo is NOT the end all be all aoe spec, if played correctly Destro can be just as good.

Your 'doom critting for X amount on X targets' doesn't do much when I'm getting 4m Chaos Bolt crits during Recklessness with nearly infinite Embers. That fight is start to finish basically 100% aoe, destro is able to compete with Demo.
Okay I just read that fight on the dungeon journal. I can see destro being good there. I still see demo being better, but I haven't done that fight yet so I can't say for sure. Really a terrible fight for an example. All of 108 demo locks have completed it, and a whole 8 Destro locks.
If you want to use that fight as an example, then look at 25 normal

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Heart_of_Fear/Wind_Lord_Mel'jarak/25N/Destruction_Warlock/

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Heart_of_Fear/Wind_Lord_Mel'jarak/25N/Demonology_Warlock/

The OP was talking about pure AoE anyways, such as the trash before Vizier. Demo wins there without much competition.
25 normal and 25 heroic are EXTREMELY different AoE-wise. 25 Normal, there's a good portion where you are no longer aoe'ing thus making what spec you are irrelevant, 25 heroic is a much better example because of how much raw aoe there is...and that is what the subject is about - raw aoe damage.

Also it's worth noting that a lot of those normal mode parses are before Molten Core had a cap and you could go into the last phase with well over 50+ stacks of Molten Core procs, making your parse radically different than it would be today.

Determining what spec is better for TRASH is completely pointless, you don't put down on a guild app "Yeah I go demo for trash just to make trash about 1 minute max faster." Or brag about how much damage you can do on trash, because it's irrelevant lol.

Reading about a fight in the dungeon journal and experiencing the fight as all 3 specs is much much different.

If that fight isn't a good example in your eyes, look at the logs of people doing fights correctly without padding meters and compare demo and destro.

All in all, Demo is immense during AoE times...I'm not denying that, I am denying that Demo is the end all spec for AoE situations. Destro in the right hands can do just as much as demo under the right circumstances. Obviously if you look at a sample size of 30 second long burst phase with Demo's CDs up, yes demo will beat -everything- (even mages with lucky combust or tanks with high vengeance) because of Chaos Wave damage...but spread that damage out over the course of a fight like Heroic Wind Lord and destro is just as good.
But AoE trash damage what THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT.

That fight is a bad example, plain and simple. You said it yourself the only reason you did any worthwhile dps was because you could throw out 4 mil CBs during recklessness. That has nothing to do with Destro's AoE.

If there were a fight with 8 or 9 targets that are up for 3 or 4 minutes we could discuss this a bit better, but there's not. Recklessness skews numbers too much to consider that a pure aoe fight and like you said about normal mode the adds are gone halfway through the fight.

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