Do you guys need a design overhaul?

Rogue
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What's funny is my backstab crits hit as hard as my backstab crits hit in 4.3, at best! Sometimes lower! That's kind of weird. But now evis hits like a truck when it crits. So I guess it made due somewhere else.
I don't have a huge list of fudamental changes that I'd like to see, but there are a few rather minor things. Mostly quality of life stuff and general polish/iteration type stuff. Nothing that would ever be implemented during a patch cycle, more likely saved for expansions.

I'd like to lose the differentiation between openers and finishers as far as ability buttons go. They are largely the same effects, so we can stack them together, reduce spellbook and keybinding bloat. Instead I'd like to see the finishers usable from stealth as if at 5 CP and award 2 combo points, 3 on crit and grant an additional effect, this would be called the opener.

Remove the current separate openers.
Remove the stealth stance bar. There little need for it to be separate with these changes and simplifies the experience.
Finishers do not cost energy.

Rupture gets a silence. (Garrote)
Eviscerate/Envenom gets extra damage. (Ambush, loses positional nature, but it can be a bonus effect if behind target. And it removes separate weapon damage modifiers.)
Crimson Tempest places a pool of poisoned blood at the location. (There's no analog, but we make it fun, if situational.) Would be neat if remaining duration on CT were placed into the pool instead of being over written during regular nonstealth CT as well.
Kidney Shot does not incur a cooldown. (Glyphed Cheapshot basicly.)
Deadly Throw grants a physical root. (No analog currently in openers, again for funszey situational stuff.)
Slice and Dice and Recuperate do not give combo points and do not have an opener effect since they are self buffs, however the duration does not expire while in stealth.
Some glyphs for openers and finishers may need to be reworked.

Burst of Speed replaces Sprint, is useable in stealth, and grants the speed boost and immunity in one application.

Shadowstep will break root/snare/daze/stun, and can be glyphed to target a location instead. 15 second cooldown.

Shadowy Embrace replaces Preparation in the talent tree.

Shadowy Embrace
Passive: Increase the movement speed bonus of fleet footed by 15%. Instant (Combat): Shadowy Tendrils surround the rogue granting the ability to slow fall for 30 seconds. Instant: Summon a pair of demonic shadow wings. Counts as both a ground and flying mount.

Preparation is baseline. Passive: Reduces the cooldown of Smoke Bomb, Evasion, and Cloak of Shadows by 1 minute and the cooldown of Vanish and Blind by 30 seconds. On Use: Immediately resets the cooldown on all other rogue abilities, but no longer grants the passive effect while Preparation is on cooldown. 5 minute cooldown.

Pick Pocket is a minor glyph. Pick the pocket of targets of Sap and openers. Yes, even in pvp. No traditional loot window, uses the an autoloot system like dungeon finder/raid finder. Watch the bling come in every fight! Again, just for fun.

Leeching Poison and Paralytic Poisons are baseline. All poisons should be baseline, the choice is what makes poisons so interesting. They have been like a mini-talent system for years already with interesting choices. More choices makes it better.

All poisons are toggles instead of buffs with duration. All poisons are weapon speed agnostic. Use whatever mechanic is required, but there shouldn't ever be a debate about weapon speed vs poison proc frequency. They should just be normalized. This will also fix Paralytic's stacking problem with lower frequency attacks.

Deadly Brew is renamed to Crippling Poison. It is a toggle effect that is applied to poisoned targets. Shiv will apply this effect in addition to the other non-lethal poison effects.

Change all attacks like sinister strike, backstab and even combat's mastery to pure ap scaling. Yay! Combat daggers! Yay! No more noobies using the wrong weapon type in mainhand! Yay! Weapon choice! Yay! I like exclamation points!

Also, two sword mutilates would be a thing? Yes, young padawan. Yes, indeed. Though, animation may put a damper on this. More unique animations for rogues would be awesome. And making weapon selection a real choice along with more stylized animations for all specs would be well worth the effort in my opinion.

Ok, I spent far too long on that. I got more, and lots of holes to fill up, like bringing in more stealth into play during combat, and generally being a slippery bastard that I didn't get around to talking about. None of which anyone is really going to read anywho.

So, all the cool kids put a TLDR in right?

TLDR:

There's stuff that can be done to tweak us, but I think overhaul overstates our "problems" The basics work. It wouldn't be a bad idea to tweak a few thing here and there to simpify the annoying and confusing bits and expand on the stylistic bits. Overall, we aren't too shabby. Most rogues just have a bit of envy looking at what toys the other classes got for christmas. Too many rogues think we got a lump of coal. When we really did improve moving into Cata.

Also, apparently I'm bad at TLDRs.
I would love to see rogues get the overhaul love next expansion as it's fairly due.

We haven't really had many major changes since vanilla. We're still using the same basic combo point builders and finishers that we've had since launch.

Our specs don't really feel unique and distinct in pve. Each spec has some cooldown to manage, some buff/debuffs to maintain and a main combo point builder.

We could really use some additional mechanics unique to each spec.

Give combat an active ability that procs off of melee swings that reduces your cooldowns and/or advance's bandit's guile. And/or make bandit's guile more active by making it evolve what your abilities actually do as opposed to just adding passive damage. Something like giving eviscerate a dot at deep insight or making your attacks pure spell damage at deep insight.

Make sub feel more like the "fighting dirty" spec by giving them rotational expose weakness type abilities. Everything in sub's rotation should be about maximizing the damage of some core ability to make it feel like you're actually exposing the target's weaknesses to hit them with this incredibly hard nuke.

Assassination is all about the poisons and your rotation should reflect that. Replace rupture in assassination's rotation with a poison dot that increases the damage of your other poisons.
Give assassination unique damage and/or secondary poisons that do something more cool than just here's some free passive damage from attacking a target. Maybe have a cyclical poison that you use some ability when you have X number of stacks of it or have a poison that generates a proc to use some ability or have an energy regen type poison.
I think that the lack of real identity for each spec might be part of my issue, too.

Maybe some of me misses the depth, as well.

I can understand why Blizzard made lockpicking auto-level and poisons purchasable. But there was something about making my poisons and keeping my LP sharp that I liked. It wasn't as grueling as keeping my pets current with the best abilities (by taming beasts that had said abilities and leveling them) but it added to the flavor, I guess. Rogues need flavor.
I feel terrible for rogues. I played one for a couple expansions but she's sitting at 85 now. On my hunter whenever my arena team goes against a rogue on the other team (rare, but happens) we know we have the win. We might as well have "hard switch to rogue" macro'd. The moment they pop, poof dead.

Once I was 1v1 in an arena on my hunter against a rogue. I had about 1/2 health (we'd played poorly against DK/Rogue and the DK killed my partner and took a chunk out of me) and he had full health. I easily beat him and ended up at full health. Now you might say "nerf hunters" but honestly if he'd been a warrior, or a DK, or even an Enh Shaman, things would have gone very bad for me. As it was my partner said "cool kill him while I go get a soda" and when he came back we had our points and rating.

I would LOVE to see rogues get their mojo back, I miss playing mine. They don't need to be ridiculous, but it might be nice if they were dangerous. Right now they're door to door vacuum cleaner salespeople. Slightly annoying but easy enough to slam the door on.
We dont need an overhaulin (my 66 vette does tho! Respond here foose)

Short version: we need shadowstep and prep

Long version: weeeeee neeeeeeeeeed sssshaaaadoooowww ssssteeeep aaaaand preeeeeep
12/03/2012 09:57 AMPosted by Hazzal
I've made new rogues, each time I've deleted them around lvl 30 and this bothers me because there is something about the class I want to like. Something I even USED to like.


I feel you. I've tried many classes but keep coming back here. Shadow Dance is really a mechanic like no other.
12/03/2012 10:06 AMPosted by Orphello
I don't think the class needs a design change, but needs a developer team that doesn't half-!@# rogue design because they want to stack the number of monks being made.


Teacher says every time a Rogue asks for equal dev attention, a Warlock gets a new spell.

Cookies if you get the reference.
12/04/2012 11:10 AMPosted by Orxoñ
I've made new rogues, each time I've deleted them around lvl 30 and this bothers me because there is something about the class I want to like. Something I even USED to like.


I feel you. I've tried many classes but keep coming back here. Shadow Dance is really a mechanic like no other.


I love the idea of a class that strikes from the shadows. Even in DnD (oh, yes, I play DnD) I tend to play some sort of rogue. In almost every game I prefer the rogue class. This does not hold true in WoW, despite me wanting it to. Reading some of the comments here I am sort of saddened that the class does not become more dynamic at 90.

In TBC I liked feeling fast and agile. I liked striking hard and fast then disappearing if things got rough. Has this sort of class mindset been transplanted onto monks?
12/08/2012 10:18 AMPosted by Hazzal
Has this sort of class mindset been transplanted onto monks?

My impression was that it was a problem with effective counterplay.

Same way most multiplayer FPS'ers put considerable controls on how effective snipers can be.
Maybe. I'm talking more in terms of flavor than PvP strength. Rogues were fast and slippery. I feel weirdly slow when I play one now. Monks give the impression of agility (though I understand Windwalkers have some design faults too at later levels).

Warriors feel faster and more "agile" than my rogues did (at low levels anyway).
I'd like an overhaul that made me feel like i was playing a new class, but i really would not like to wait 2 years for it...I've seen a lot of great ideas in the forum lately, but i doubt the designers look or would even take one of our idea's seriously. They just implement whatever is they feel is best.
12/08/2012 11:41 AMPosted by Jackoblades
I'd like an overhaul that made me feel like i was playing a new class, but i really would not like to wait 2 years for it...I've seen a lot of great ideas in the forum lately, but i doubt the designers look or would even take one of our idea's seriously. They just implement whatever is they feel is best.


Even though I don't personally want to feel like im playing a new class, I do agree that i wish we felt a bit different with new tools/abilities to play around with. Our 90 tier talents are so boring and uninspired, no cool affects no "EPIC LEVEL 90 ABILITY" feel to any of them.....AT ALL

PS. Love your name :P
I don't feel like it is 'new' tools, just better implementation of current ones, we have all the 'tools' i think that define the idea of a stealth class, they all just seem to work poorly.

I would LOVE to see the 3 specs play differently... I literally have my bars identical (minus premed macroed into all openers) for all 3 trees, the only difference being my 2 and 3 buttons which i use for my CP generators (SS,RS-Mut,Dispatch-Hemo,Backstab). Otherwise, the mouse buttons for spec specific CDs are the only difference. And all the rotations are pretty similar as well.

Assassination could be the dot spec, allowing for time off target where it wasn't breaking their damage, kind of allowing for a more in and out of melee dmg kind of output. (though you would still have best dmg maintaining uptime in melee) Combat being the straight uptime spec going more toe to toe with opponents, i.e. better heals, more survivability and better CDs on defensive cooldowns (Evasion, Cloak). and leaving sub to be the shadowy burst spec, not relying on bleeds like it currently does... (WHICH IS AWFUL)...

Just my 2 cents on what i would like to see.

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