40 VP per boss isn't enough

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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12/04/2012 01:23 PMPosted by Nathanbp
In DS/FL it didn't matter if you capped or not for the week most of the time the tier was out since you probably were only going to buy a couple slots of gear with VP, and once you were done all VP did was let you sell BoEs. Now with the endless VP sink of item upgrades, raiders will feel forced to cap on VP every single week for the entirety of the expansion. Given the choice I'd rather Blizzard have never implemented the item upgrade system in the first place, but now that they have, they should significantly increase the valor dropped from raid bosses even more.

This.
12/04/2012 12:48 PMPosted by Waste
I am a raider . . . raiders should be able to VP cap from raids.

I can understand that you'd *want* this, but I don't know if there is any logical reason you *should* be able to do this.

Valor seems to, among other purposes, be designed to encourage players to diversify their play time. Why would Blizzard be interested in changing that as applied to self-described "raiders who profess to having no interest in any other aspect of the game whatsoever?"


You seem confused. "Valor" has always been something that was more easily obtainable from raids.

In BC, Valor was known as Badges of Justice. They could be obtained by any boss, but rewarded raiders more heavily for their time investment. In BC there was no weekly cap:
http://www.wowpedia.org/Badge_of_Justice

However in BC, most raiders did not need Badge gear unless they were behind the curve.

In WotLK, The system was Emblems of Heroism (5mans + 10mans) and Valor (25mans).
Then a convoluted rotation of Conquest/Triumph/Frost happened with the best Emblem only available from raids and Daily dungeons and weekly raid quests. I never had a problem with Valor capping, and eventually capping was not required once I got my base tier gear.

Cata added Justice and Valor points as we know them with Justice from dungeons and Valor from raids and daily dungeons with each content patch converting Valor into Justice.
@ Launch 25mans gained more than 10mans with 25mans being able to cap just from raiding while 10mans were required to run Dungeons with the same also applying to Firelands with 25man raids able to cap @ 980 from killing the 7 current bosses. In Dragon Soul for the first time, both 10 and 25mans were rewarded equivalent amounts of VP. While valor was required in 4.0-4.2 for tier gear, it was not in 4.3 and many raiders did not feel the need to gain Valor past 1 or two pieces.

So no, for the first time since Points were introduced, Blizzard is forcing raiders out of raids to get the VP they need. Raiders need Valor more than at any time in WoW's history and thanks to the iLvl upgrade system, valor now offers the largest upgrade and longest grind of any Badge system in WoW's history.

Valor as "The high end PVE currency that you can get for doing any kind of PVE content whatsoever, but which you cannot cap by doing exclusively high end PVE content" is a fairly new idea. If we made conquest "The high end PVP currency that you cannot cap by doing exclusively high end PVP content," I'm sure we would hear similar complaints.


This is a fantastic point.
They could revert the changes and you can be in the same position you were in.

People will cry over anything.
with the new system, I'm capping on Tuesdays before raid, change doesnt help that.
Well depending on what the iLvL is next tier, we might not have to touch LFR at all because the ilvL of upgraded normal terrace/HoF and heroic gear should far outweigh any gains from possible set bonuses.

At least that's my hope.

Would I like it to be higher than 40? Yeah, but it's still 3 less heroic dailies I'll have to do.
I don't expect 8 ilvl to make us not want a new tier's set bonuses...
12/04/2012 02:22 PMPosted by Somewhat
I don't expect 8 ilvl to make us not want a new tier's set bonuses...


Or the next stage of the legendary questline
I don't find it too bad to have stuff to do out of raids, having lfr give more valor then a normal clear seemed out of whack this puts it more in line.

That being allowing more valor from 25 man seems like it would a decent change to me that I don't think many would have a problem with at all.
Echoing what Nathan said about not having to Valor Cap after the first few weeks at most, versus having to Valor Cap every single week now.

The new system also makes it harder to maintain an offset.
If I do dailies, I can get something like 2 valor a minute (maybe a little more, definitely more for Tillers). So that's 500 minutes of playtime to cap Valor, or 8.33 hours. Most raiding guilds spend 10+ hours a week on raiding alone and yet they don't cap. My guild only raids two nights but we spend 8-9 hours a week raiding, and we only get something like 50% of the valor cap for doing the hardest PvE content possible?

Something seems off.


So don't do dailies for your valor? A scenario + lfd dungeon takes all of about 40 minutes now, which is 120 each day (or even 2 dungeons if you're a healer/tank and get quick queues). 2 hours for 360 to cap for the week if you do all the raid bosses. Or do the challenge mode daily and get silver and it's more than 120 in 40 minutes (for most of them).
Now if you would like to maintain an offspec you'll need either LFR drops, or leftovers in raid. If you guild is prioritizing Blood Spirits over Offspec, you'd have to wait until the tier is obsolete for the OS gear.

Many guilds expect raiders to maintain 2 sets of gear, the iLvl upgrade system can really punish that. (Have to resort to crafted gear instead of VP gear to fill in gaps.)
12/04/2012 01:27 PMPosted by Mechanize
In DS/FL it didn't matter if you capped or not for the week most of the time the tier was out since you probably were only going to buy a couple slots of gear with VP, and once you were done all VP did was let you sell BoEs. Now with the endless VP sink of item upgrades, raiders will feel forced to cap on VP every single week for the entirety of the expansion. Given the choice I'd rather Blizzard have never implemented the item upgrade system in the first place, but now that they have, they should significantly increase the valor dropped from raid bosses even more.

This.


This again. The biggest issue with capping Valor is that it is a 100% must for all raiders. This is the "new" LFR thing. It is something that isn't "forced" so we shouldn't have to do it, but we do. It will be a LOOOONG time until every item you have once in BiS is fully upgraded. Which means every week raiders will have to do something they don't want to do to be able to do what they want to do.
12/04/2012 12:48 PMPosted by Waste
but I don't know if there is any logical reason you *should* be able to do this.


Enlighten me and others, please. I'd really, really love to see this. I shouldn't be forced to do dailies/LFR/5 mans for VP. Especially with the new valor upgrade system, unless you're done with content/BiS all around.
Enlighten me and others, please. I'd really, really love to see this. I shouldn't be forced to do dailies/LFR/5 mans for VP.


Careful, he'll bring up how "you're not forced to even play the game" argument, then start talking about how to do beth'tilac with nobody up.
12/04/2012 03:16 PMPosted by Nellise
So don't do dailies for your valor? A scenario + lfd dungeon takes all of about 40 minutes now, which is 120 each day (or even 2 dungeons if you're a healer/tank and get quick queues). 2 hours for 360 to cap for the week if you do all the raid bosses. Or do the challenge mode daily and get silver and it's more than 120 in 40 minutes (for most of them).


Er, thanks for proving my point? You are pointing out that dailies aren't very good valor compared to other sources, right?

And yet they're still over 100% better in terms of valor/hour than raiding for us, and we only raid 8-9 hours a week.
12/04/2012 12:48 PMPosted by Waste
I am a raider . . . raiders should be able to VP cap from raids.

I can understand that you'd *want* this, but I don't know if there is any logical reason you *should* be able to do this.

Valor seems to, among other purposes, be designed to encourage players to diversify their play time. Why would Blizzard be interested in changing that as applied to self-described "raiders who profess to having no interest in any other aspect of the game whatsoever?"


There was a time when you could only acquire valor points, or their equivalent badges, via raiding. They were implemented to give you a way to reliably gain some holdover items in case you were unlucky with real drops, and to provide the very spec-specific items like idols and whatnot so they didn't waste space on a loot table.

They have never been there to force you to "diversify" your play time. I don't want to diversify my play time. Grinding heroics, LFR, and dailies is absolutely awful. Anyone that's actually raiding should trivially cap VP every week. It should be like 150 VP per boss.
They have never been there to force you to "diversify" your play time. I don't want to diversify my play time. Grinding heroics, LFR, and dailies is absolutely awful. Anyone that's actually raiding should trivially cap VP every week. It should be like 150 VP per boss.


It's really a shame Blizzard can't stand by their word any more. They promised they wouldn't force us (raiders) into things like LFR, and then they went ahead and put legendary items in them as well as the usual 4pc bonuses + trinkets as well as prevent us from capping VP in raids and then added a system that requires VP capping.

Hint: If shoulder/helm enchants were required, then VP capping to upgrade is certainly required. At least the shoulder/helm grind eventually ended... this one doesn't however.

To Blizzard:
I have a job. I am married. I have friends. I LOVE RAIDING and at a heroic level. But if you are going to keep forcing me to do this much stuff outside of raids, I will not be able to maintain this for long, and given the choice between sleep or not, between seeing my friends/family or not, I will choose real life. So if you want to maintain your subscription from players who have busy lives, then you need to change your model and stop forcing us to grind endlessly. Let us have breaks once we gear up. Let us actually enjoy the game.
Ever since the rogue legendary, they've consistently been doing the opposite of what they've said.

"Won't nerf heroic bosses mid-week progression" Heroic Sha of Fear got pretty nerfed (still a hard fight obviously) on a friday middle of the night.... and the hotfixes went live different times us and EU.

Won't force raiders... legendary = farming lfr = not really legendary. (droprate was HIGHER on lfr)

We think Golden Lotus should be less rare - Nerfs it by 33% (https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/253499844780490752)
Ever since the rogue legendary, they've consistently been doing the opposite of what they've said.

"Won't nerf heroic bosses mid-week progression" Heroic Sha of Fear got pretty nerfed (still a hard fight obviously) on a friday middle of the night.... and the hotfixes went live different times us and EU.

Won't force raiders... legendary = farming lfr = not really legendary. (droprate was HIGHER on lfr)

We think Golden Lotus should be less rare - Nerfs it by 33% (https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/253499844780490752)


The moderators and devs have all been replaced by the two headed ogres.....

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