Oh, Vol'jin

Story Forum
That's what Blizzard's writers are doing. I'm surprised you haven't noticed. There's not many layers of meaning here at all. Garrosh is pretty blatantly "evil". As in, he's promoting the sort of things this game-world classifies as evil and performing actions that are supposed to be evil to lead up to his role as the expansion's main antagonist, both for the Horde and the Alliance.

I swear - Blizzard have been ridiculously open about their intent here. What has to happen to make it more obvious? Does Garrosh have to start wearing a cape with a high collar? Is he supposed to end all his statements with "Muahahahaha!"? Should he start mumbling his "evil plans" out-loud as if he thinks nobody else can hear them?

They can't get any more blatant with the guy.

See. This is sort of my point. People are drawing what they want to see from here more than anything else.

You're right in that Blizzard isn't the best with nuance, but it doesn't really matter when you're going out of your way to avoid any in the first place.


Garrosh was never one to be subtle. That's not bad writing, that's just Garrosh being Garrosh.
I'm surprised by the number of people touting that Garrosh abused his position or put them in a bad way...

The reality is that the Horde was already in a bad way, Orcs especially. I can agree that Garrosh put the Orcs ahead of the rest of the Horde making him an excellent faction leader but something less than ideal of a Warchief, but... the problem wasn't his creating. Thrall was the one who put the Orcs in Durotar and has his people destitute and starving. And this crazy idea that somehow Garrosh being a violent warmonger is somehow anti-Orc... every Warchief in history has been a warmonger (including Thrall, the most peaceful of the bunch). The honorific sort of explains it all. Not Peacechief, not King, not Head Councilman- Warchief.

The Orcs, cleansed of demonic taint or not, still sport a racial ability called "Blood Fury". They have a racial propensity for hacking implements. Their common parlance is littered with phrases like "Victory or Death!". When people get on their kicks about "it's a new and kinder Horde!", I'm left wondering what game they're playing. Thrall might've worn velvet gloves, but the vast majority of the rest of the Horde isn't like him. Garrosh is far more representative of what the Orcs, and by some extension- the rest of the Horde, is.

The very fact that Vol'jin wasn't cut down immediately for threatening the life of the Warchief by the Kor'kron or Garrosh himself (who's proven with just about everything from dragons to Varian to Thrall that he has no issue with just jumping into a fight when he gets angry) is just indicative of the storywriters railroading him nonsensically and trying to build up an act of wanton mutiny as something heroic.
12/02/2012 12:17 PMPosted by Lorthuron


Are we reading the same forum?


Vol'Jin doesn't strike me the guy as being *evil*. He just doesn't, he's a tad shady but at least he told Garrosh what's up.

Thats what them Shadow Hunters are :D

bah da tish.
12/02/2012 09:21 AMPosted by Skytotem
Lor'themar? Only recently grew his spine.

Least it's not "Who?" anymore.
Lor'themar? Only recently grew his spine.

Least it's not "Who?" anymore.


thats true.
I wonder why a guy cant just be evil? Garrosh could be just a bad guy and Vol'jin the hero who will put him down. I honestly dont see a problem about it, alongside the history of the humanity there are a couple of "plain evil guy" examples, why not in a fantasy game?
Garrosh is the bad guy, Vol'jin the good one, end of history. Whats the problem?

(P.S.: sorry about my poor english, not my primary languaje)

Garrosh is the bad guy, Vol'jin the good one, end of history. Whats the problem?

Because neither of them really are. Garrosh is well intentioned and struggling with a lot of problems both internal and external. There's nothing especially heroic or noble about Vol'jin in the first place. He's also kind of hypocritical at times.
Vol'jin is a good guy... He led his people to a better life, and he is respectful to other people, including high elves. He got some "grudge" agaisnt humans, but that can be understandable since his people were nearly wiped out by Daelin Proudmoore, who was, by the way, the first to strike the trolls who were just minding their own business. Yeah, humans can be evil too.

The point is, the orcs helped him and he stayed true to his allies... Vol'jin helped the forsaken to retake undercity, and helped defending Orgrimmar during the attack of the elementals. He chose to stay with the horde when every other Troll was kissing the Zandalari's hexxed asses... A guy who is loyal to his friends, good to his people and willing to put his life in line for what he believe is good is both a good guy and a hero in my book.

As for him being hypocritical... You are incorrect.
By the time Vol'jin threatened to kill Garrosh, he didn't recognize him as his Warchief:
Ya be no Warchief of mine. Ya've not earned my respect and I'll not be seein' tha Horde destroyed by ya foolish thirst for war.


The position of Warchief is not one you can force upon the other factions throats... They must accept you, or you have no power over them.

At that point, he even made it clear in his dialogue with Thrall that his intention is to leave the horde:
Vol'jin says: I must beg ya council my friend. I can't be standin' by Garrosh while he be turnin' our people against each other for the sake of war. My respect for ya does not extend to dis new Horde... I am tinkin' of leadin' my people away.


So, this is a very different scenario: Vol'jin and the Darkspears leave the Horde because of Garrosh, but he keeps his eyes open for an oportunity to kill Garrosh, thus helping the horde.

But then Thrall talks to him and his arguments convince him to stay with the Horde, accepting the Warchief. His position changed, and its obvious that his threat was now void, because he intended to wait for Thrall's return.

The same cannot be said for Garrosh...
He attacked Vol'jin when the darkspear was on a mission to *prove his obedience* to the Warchief. He even had a special "troll killing" poison to do the job, and a hired assassin to deliver it. I wont explain further why one thing is different from the other one... If you can't understand this as it is, you are beyond reason and it would be just a waste of space in an already long post.

As for him being hypocritical... You are incorrect.

Vol'jin tells me the importance of standing with Hellscream despite our disagreements because he's well intentioned and because of the importance of a unified Horde. Immediately after giving his speech about how he's going to kill Garrosh. If that's not hypocritical I don't know what is.

The same cannot be said for Garrosh...
He attacked Vol'jin when the darkspear was on a mission to *prove his obedience* to the Warchief. He even had a special "troll killing" poison to do the job, and a hired assassin to deliver it. I wont explain further why one thing is different from the other one... If you can't understand this as it is, you are beyond reason and it would be just a waste of space in an already long post.

It's not really that weird for Garrosh to want to kill Vol'jin considering Vol'jin openly tells Garrosh he wants to kill him and dismantle his government. I have no idea why everyone acts as though Garrosh is unjustified here. From his perspective (and apparently Vol'jin's) Vol'jin is threatening the stability and strength of the horde with open treason. Not trying to kill him would have been dumb as !@#$.
12/04/2012 11:04 PMPosted by Mirari
Vol'jin tells me the importance of standing with Hellscream despite our disagreements because he's well intentioned and because of the importance of a unified Horde. Immediately after giving his speech about how he's going to kill Garrosh. If that's not hypocritical I don't know what is.


Vol'jin actually said that some time prior. You were simply seeing a vision of the talk. Vol'jin says immediately afterward that he losed his temper and went too far. In short when he says the horde has to stick together hes already said he was wrong to say those earlier things to Garrosh.

12/04/2012 11:04 PMPosted by Mirari
It's not really that weird for Garrosh to want to kill Vol'jin considering Vol'jin openly tells Garrosh he wants to kill him and dismantle his government. I have no idea why everyone acts as though Garrosh is unjustified here. From his perspective (and apparently Vol'jin's) Vol'jin is threatening the stability and strength of the horde with open treason. Not trying to kill him would have been dumb as !@#$.


We dont know much about what happened since that discussion. Its likely Garrosh and Vol'jin at least repaired their issues enough for Garrosh and Vol'jin to be on speaking terms. It wouldnt have been likely for him to call on Vol'jin during the attack on Theramore otherwise.

We do know that this is an underhanded move by Garrosh which doesnt match his old way of openly facing threats. Back after he took over he never would have had an ally, even a questionable one, stabbed in the back. He would have faced the guy down directly. Its a pretty big shift in how Garrosh operates.

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