Highly Rated Post: Competitive Gaming

Arenas
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12/28/2012 02:49 PMPosted by Quikzs
Agree on everything but 3rd point is just a dream thats not going to happen, even if its a f2p. Gear is normalized for tournaments tho, but having to grind to get your gear is part of the game and every other mmorpg. You cant compare this aspect of the game with others like Dota or SC2, mb with LoL since u have to grind to get lvl 30, ip for runes, pages and champs.


The fact that those games require grinding is, what I think, is the biggest flaw in them as competitive games. The system I would like to see adopted is one like HoN. This is another MOBA but you are given all characters right from the start. From there you can grind off cosmetic upgrades (different skins, account icons, name colours, etc.) or buy them if you want to get them quickly. At no point does playing more or paying more give you an advantage over other players. This is a system that allows a game to remain fun for people that spend lots of time/money on the game without ruining it for those who don't. Regardless of being able to play the whole game without spending a cent (after initial purchase that is) the game supports itself quite well.

Grinding doesn't have to go away but not grinding should not put a player at any significant disadvantage, at least in competitive areas of the game.
the answer to keeping completely different classes/specs balanced for both pve and pvp, imho, is to balance them first for pvp. then simply add extra (damage-only) abilities that are only usable in pve to correct pve dps differences where needed. this seems to me to be the correct and cleanest design philosophy.

that approach allows pve and pvp abilities to keep the same formulas, which i know is something blizzard has held very dear. it simply disables certain pve-only abilites completely when you enter pvp combat.

blizzard's philosophy has been to balance first for pve, and then to adjust things for pvp and they've only confused themselves with that approach. it puts them into a back and forth pve buff, pvp nerf, pve nerf, pvp buff cycle they never succeed at resolving.

i'm ready to relocate and replace GC today, let's do this.
more accurately, this would have been the correct path for 'initial' design. but since wow isn't in the initial design phase anymore, they would have to retroactively implement this philosophy by removing certain pve moves from the pvp environment. having those pve-only damage moves to tweak and adjust is how pve dps would stay balanced, while not interfering with pvp balance.
This might be the best post I have ever seen, and I have been reading the forums for a long long time.

That being said, I think everyone should quit playing 90s and make an 85 twink, once you get your gear your done and its one of the more balanced brackets out there.
Blizzard, or Ghost Crawler at least, hates PvP. This is pretty much fact. If it wasn't true, he wouldn't be trying to ruin it as hard as he has this xpac. More instant CC? More PvP gear grind? More gear disparity? More burst damage? It's like he took everything the players said they hated and made MORE of it. If GC isn't trying to sabotage PvP then he's downright incompetent. Either way, he needs to go, or at the very least, be banned from PvP changes for all eternity.
I have a large problem with the amount of time required to be competitive. I started a month or two after MoP was released, and basically haven't been able to enjoy the game yet. If Blizzard wishes to keep the gear progression aspect, perhaps tone it down so people who want to level alts, or come back to the game can actually do so reasonably.

I also agree with the class homogenization comments and the negative movements the game has taken as far as mechanics go.

Great forum, I sincerely hope it gets attention and more importantly inspires action from developers.


They made max gear take longer to get in an attempt to give people a reason to play arena later in the season. This has horribly failed and just led to people getting frustrated because if they miss a week they are behind for even longer. This is why cosmetic upgrades are a better design. It gives people some reason to play without inducing the great frustration from not having max gear.
WoW was not even close to balanced when it was part of MLG and that's why it was removed. Blizz has put more attention into PvP during MoP than ever before. Far more specs are viable for PvP than WoW has ever seen.

Global champion Kollectiv was asked what he thought of WoW's PvP as it is now. He responded saying its the closest to balanced its ever been. That still leaves a lot of room for improvement but it does show Blizz is moving in the right direction.


Nothing that I have said was about balance. The game can be as balanced as possible but that's not the point. I would much rather have an unbalanced interesting game than a balanced boring game. More people are going to watch season 7 WoW than are going to watch rock paper scissors. Which one is more balanced? Obviously rock paper scissors. Does this make it the better game? Clearly not.

This post's purpose is not to talk about balance. This forum is already riddled with posts talking about that (many for good reason as this game is still very unbalanced, look at disc viability vs druid). The point of this post is to outline the issues with WoW as a competitive game. It has very little support from blizzard (no arena spectator mode etc.), it has seen a great reduction in skill since wrath, it requires far too much grinding for people to possibly change their class or to enter into pvp from dinging 90, and has seen a great reduction in interesting class mechanics that would make it more of a spectator game. We could talk about balance all day but balance means nothing if the game is still boring.
WoW was not even close to balanced when it was part of MLG and that's why it was removed. Blizz has put more attention into PvP during MoP than ever before. Far more specs are viable for PvP than WoW has ever seen.

Global champion Kollectiv was asked what he thought of WoW's PvP as it is now. He responded saying its the closest to balanced its ever been. That still leaves a lot of room for improvement but it does show Blizz is moving in the right direction.


Nothing that I have said was about balance. The game can be as balanced as possible but that's not the point. I would much rather have an unbalanced interesting game than a balanced boring game. More people are going to watch season 7 WoW than are going to watch rock paper scissors. Which one is more balanced? Obviously rock paper scissors. Does this make it the better game? Clearly not.

This post's purpose is not to talk about balance. This forum is already riddled with posts talking about that (many for good reason as this game is still very unbalanced, look at disc viability vs druid). The point of this post is to outline the issues with WoW as a competitive game. It has very little support from blizzard (no arena spectator mode etc.), it has seen a great reduction in skill since wrath, it requires far too much grinding for people to possibly change their class or to enter into pvp from dinging 90, and has seen a great reduction in interesting class mechanics that would make it more of a spectator game. We could talk about balance all day but balance means nothing if the game is still boring.

You never mentioned balance but balance is a major player in what you're addressing. I don't enjoy watching a match where I know one team or the other has a major advantage do to class.

I agree that WoW still has a ways to go towards balancing. But I also think Blizz has put a lot more work into PvP than they ever have before. They've even mentioned the possibility of adding a spectator mode. They will need to find a way to give it a 10 min buffer or something so you can't have "coaches" helping one of the teams.

At least Blizz is no longer saying, "WoW is a PvE game!" They are putting real effort into PvP for the first time it seems. We'll need to keep giving ideas but it would also help if we could get more online tournaments like NAO and Yaspresents. Things like that give Blizz inspiration as you can see from the changes they made to BWC tourney.

I've read quite a few of the responses as well as the main post and I was also responding to them.
You never mentioned balance but balance is a major player in what you're addressing. I don't enjoy watching a match where I know one team or the other has a major advantage do to class.

I agree that WoW still has a ways to go towards balancing. But I also think Blizz has put a lot more work into PvP than they ever have before. They've even mentioned the possibility of adding a spectator mode. They will need to find a way to give it a 10 min buffer or something so you can't have "coaches" helping one of the teams.

At least Blizz is no longer saying, "WoW is a PvE game!" They are putting real effort into PvP for the first time it seems. We'll need to keep giving ideas but it would also help if we could get more online tournaments like NAO and Yaspresents. Things like that give Blizz inspiration as you can see from the changes they made to BWC tourney.

I've read quite a few of the responses as well as the main post and I was also responding to them.


Regardless of their effort towards pvp, it's the results that matter and they have been lack luster. This game is still far more boring that it was in wrath and isn't even close to the level of watch-ability. The things stated in this post are meant to address these issues and provide some direction as to what could be changed, not just for balance, but to create a competitive e-sport.
"Upgrading PVP gear via Conq sure is rough for newcomers to arenas who want to catch up. It was already so hard to compete =\"
"If newcomers can catch up too quickly, then the players who stuck with it start to wonder why they bothered. It's a fine line."
"Getting gear is 0% of PvP. In fact we hate that part. It's the competition. Please realize that."
"For tournaments, gear shouldn't matter. For playing your character, we want it to. It's a powerful incentive. WoW is an RPG. Getting gear is a big part of that. We don't think the game would have legs, even in PvP, without it."

Ghostcrawler clearly doesn't care about the PvP community when he wants others to have an advantage in a competitive setting. He says without gear the PvP community would fall apart. He underestimates the competitive nature of players that enjoy PvP.

There is a reason twinks exist in this game. Those of us that participate don't need rewards or upgrades to keep going. Just having the competition and community that comes with it keeps the ball rolling.

Who has ever played this game because of gear? The vast majority of people that I have talked to play the game because they enjoy the competition that comes with it or they have met really good people who's company they enjoy.
Blizzard already has arguably the best competitive game in Starcraft. Doubt they care enough to make WoW competitive. It's not really that difficult to fix, honestly could be done with just a few changes, if they wanted to they would. They simply don't care that much, because PvP is an after thought on WoW and always will be.

They're more likely to make challenge modes a MLG event before arenas are balanced enough to be competitive.
the answer to keeping completely different classes/specs balanced for both pve and pvp, imho, is to balance them first for pvp. then simply add extra (damage-only) abilities that are only usable in pve to correct pve dps differences where needed. this seems to me to be the correct and cleanest design philosophy.

that approach allows pve and pvp abilities to keep the same formulas, which i know is something blizzard has held very dear. it simply disables certain pve-only abilites completely when you enter pvp combat.

blizzard's philosophy has been to balance first for pve, and then to adjust things for pvp and they've only confused themselves with that approach. it puts them into a back and forth pve buff, pvp nerf, pve nerf, pvp buff cycle they never succeed at resolving.

i'm ready to relocate and replace GC today, let's do this.


This is the kind of approach that Starcraft has taken and it has resulted in a far better designed and more balanced game. The game was designed with pvp in mind and alternate units were added to campaign to make it interesting in a way that would not effect multiplier. Does this ruin pve? I've never played through the campaign, frankly, i'm not interested in pve of any sort, but I've heard nothing but good from those who have played through it. It's quite clear that a game can be designed with pvp in mind and still have desirable pve content.
01/01/2013 10:16 PMPosted by Getsomesmite
Regardless of their effort towards pvp, it's the results that matter and they have been lack luster. This game is still far more boring that it was in wrath and isn't even close to the level of watch-ability. The things stated in this post are meant to address these issues and provide some direction as to what could be changed, not just for balance, but to create a competitive e-sport.

I disagree. I find WoW to be way more exciting in MoP than LK or Cata.

I'm very much looking forward to the upcoming Yaspresents tournament and can't wait for more to come. For the first time ever I'm excited to see WoW online tournament announcements. (except maybe for the first time I watched one)

I personally found prior expacs to be boring and unwatchable. I fully understand this is my opinion and others feel completely differently. I appreciate the back and forth but I simply don't feel the same way you do on this topic.
Agree with OP. Its time to take everything away from everyone and look again at what is supposed to make classes unique from each other.
and as for pvp gearing: the gear is in the way of the fun.. not a goal but the grind before you get to play your toon the way you can.
WoW PvP will never be an esport. Why? Because Blizzard doesn't give a crap.
01/01/2013 09:24 PMPosted by Getsomesmite
We could talk about balance all day but balance means nothing if the game is still boring.


And interesting mechanics mean nothing if the game isn't balanced! While this isn't a post about balance, i'm suggesting the root cause of the problem is that blizzard isn't good enough at balance to make *completely different and unique* classes/specs still competitively equivalent to each other. I agree with everyone who is saying all of the current classes/specs are too similar to each other. It would be so much more interesting to see diametrically opposed styles go head to head. So why doesn't Blizzard make that happen? Because doing so would complicate balance and they're not really up to the task. It's easy to balance Ret vs Enhance. It's more difficult to balance Juggernaut vs Wolverine.

In short, I actually have faith that blizzard has the imagination to make the pvp game more interesting, but they lack the mechanical prowess to keep that interesting game balanced, so they won't try it.
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