Neutral Faction: A ponderance.

Moon Guard
What about the races of the horde that have had little to nothing to do with the destruction of Lordaeron. The tauren for example. In point of fact, much of the cleansing and healing in the plaguelands that has occured is because of the efforts of the tauren and the kaldorei from the Cenarion Circle that spent...the better part of three expansions discussing how best to heal the land there. Rimblat, I think his name was? Does Karob bear hatred for them, simply because circumstances put them on the horde?
He does. Due to their siding with the force that occupies his home, he has a hatred for them; Tauren being on the far end of it. I suppose a neutral Tauren wouldn't be something he'd try to kill outright, but this would require somehow knowing that it's neutral. Trolls, Goblins, Orcs, Blood Elves, the Undead (To a lesser point Death Knights.), and Horde-sided Pandaren don't belong in Lordaeron, and therefor need to be removed from it. Again, since the Horde is what's occupying Lordaeron, their races are going to be hated by him.

EDIT: Spelling.
@Shennae: Explain? Why can there not be a third group that has its own opinions and thoughts and ways of doing things while there exists any opposition to it at all? Is there a law some where that says "You can only answer 'Blue' or 'Green'! No other colors are viable answers!?" for example? Clearly there can be other groups with opinions, like the Circle and the Ring and the Argents...all have their own ways of doing things, and individual opinions about actions taken by either side.

@Tadkins: Continuing on this line of thought, because its a thought provoking concept. Where should the loyalty lines be drawn? Look at the trolls, for example. Most trolls have very little loyalty to other trolls beyond their own home tribe. They fight each other all the time. For millenia, its why the Zandalari held the position of mediators and watchdogs, smacking down their own kind when they got out of hand in one way or another. Or human countries--each of them has their own loyalties to their own nation, rather than along species lines. The same goes for almost every other race in the conflict, with few exceptions. So why should species loyalty be expected beyond one's immediate circle? What has changed? Each race has examples of splinter factions within their own species.

@Felthier: These factions have really only existed for a handful of decades. Some of the peoples in them havent been in them for more than ten or fifteen years. What makes a people so committed to these ideals that change would be impossible? Clearly Lorthremar doesnt think so--there is dialogue implying that he is reconsidering the faction his people are a part of. Is it because up til now there has been no viable alternative? Or because they are TRULY committed to the cause? And what about those fringe members, who dont really fit with their own culture or those who want to take a stand for what they believe in? And how have none of the neutral factions truly benefitted Azeroth in the same way? Was it not the Earthen Ring who led the charge to restore the pillar in deepholme, while Horde and Alliance were fighting each other? What about the defense of mount hyjal? Was that led by the horde and alliance, or did members of both just answer the call of the Guardians of Hyjal? What great feats have -EITHER- side been solely responsible for without the urging of the neutral factions?

@Beekman: Explain to me more of these "Moral" oppositions. Which groups do you feel would be so on both sides and -why?- What kind of conflict do you feel would be appropriate internally for each faction? Why do you think certain kinds would side with one ideal or another? Talk to me about motivations, outcomes, possible fallout. How would this change the balance of power for each side? What hearts might change through this all?

@Q: Ok, here's an interesting thought then. What action would be SEVERE enough for them to pick horde or alliance? What would drive them to throwing their lot in with one or the other's cause?

@Karob: Since you mention races in Lordaeron who arent Lordaeron humans...what about People like the Kaldorei, or the dwarves, or such? Would he want them gone as well, even if their intent was to heal the land, and put things to right? How far does his dislike extend? Does it have a backing besides simple anger and xenophobia? What would he do to check any of it? What exceptions would he make?

As a note to all, THIS is the kind of discussion I like! Intelligent, thoughtful points, no mudslinging, and good discussion of ideas and thoughts to get the creative juices flowing! :} Keep it coming!
I'll use four characters for this one.

Arimeia:

Druid, Worgen, "Harvest Witch". It's pretty simple; the land is her only responsibility, and she will defend it, doggedly. In her mind, Azeroth is more important than a factional war.

Adira:

She is a Witch Hunter...Ideally, she wants peace to do her bloody job. Well, that isn't occurring. She'd flip nuetral in a heartbeat if it meant her duty would become easier. Also, she has a family to take care of.

Belandris:

She is only Blood Elf in name by this point. She's travelled as a caravan rider, and she can do it again. In retrospect, she wouldn't turn down such a chance. She is also a diehard healer.

Medasia:

Businesswoman, rogue, vineyard owner. If it means she can have a normal life again, and sell wine, she'd do it and flip nuetral instantly. Plus she thinks Garrosh is a strategic/tactical nincompoop. She doesn't want to be there when the ship sinks.
@Q: Ok, here's an interesting thought then. What action would be SEVERE enough for them to pick horde or alliance? What would drive them to throwing their lot in with one or the other's cause?
The death of their people, I.e. Total genocidal acts against the night elven people. Much death has already been seen, and the only people to offer aid was the Alliance, thus they have Alliance leanings in their decision making and opinions, but do they completely hate or wish ill of the Horde? No, they believe that many of the Horde are foolish for listening to a monster like Garrosh and that there are some that believe that Garrosh has gone mad, lost his kibbles, or simply isn't the leader that the Horde needs and are defacting on their own free will. What would drive them however to join another group, would be either the willful murder of kin, or the blatent acts of disregard for the world around either faction. Which already has come to pass.
Since you mention races in Lordaeron who arent Lordaeron humans...what about People like the Kaldorei, or the dwarves, or such? Would he want them gone as well, even if their intent was to heal the land, and put things to right? How far does his dislike extend? Does it have a backing besides simple anger and xenophobia? What would he do to check any of it? What exceptions would he make?
The Night Elves aren't exactly the best choice, but he doesn't exactly have a problem with the Alliance races farther than dislike. Dwarves and High Elves he has no problems with, which is evident considering he married a Quel'dorei twice, he barely knows what a Draenei is, Night Elves are useful in the sense that they helped heal the Plaguelands, barely knows what a Pandaren is, there's a general theme here. His hatred of the Horde's races is, of course, from the occupation of Lordaeron, the troll wars, the numerous assaults on the Alliance, Durnholde, Theramore, etc.
@Tadkins: Continuing on this line of thought, because its a thought provoking concept. Where should the loyalty lines be drawn? Look at the trolls, for example. Most trolls have very little loyalty to other trolls beyond their own home tribe. They fight each other all the time. For millenia, its why the Zandalari held the position of mediators and watchdogs, smacking down their own kind when they got out of hand in one way or another. Or human countries--each of them has their own loyalties to their own nation, rather than along species lines. The same goes for almost every other race in the conflict, with few exceptions. So why should species loyalty be expected beyond one's immediate circle? What has changed? Each race has examples of splinter factions within their own species.


For the most part, the Zandalari are their own faction, as were most of the troll tribes. If I understand correctly, a troll nowadays is either a part of the new Zandalar coalition, the Darkspear/Horde, or are pretty much lonely exiles.

The human nations, in turn, had their own nationalities and pride, but also understood the need to band together to overcome a great threat and possibility of extermination. Thus, the Alliance was formed.

I'll use you and your guild as an example. Based off what little I know of you guys, you are a "neutral" group that RPs in the Twilight Grove. The possibility of the Horde destroying the Alliance and taking over Azeroth should be a concern for you. If the Alliance became no more, what would stop the Horde from simply stomping on you and taking your land later?

The war going on is a concern for everyone. Neutral groups are mowed over and left in the dust as the two dominant powers in the world fight this war. The poor native Pandaren should be a good example of that.
12/05/2012 01:17 PMPosted by Duskhowl
Would they join


No

12/05/2012 01:17 PMPosted by Duskhowl
Would they hate them


Yes

12/05/2012 01:17 PMPosted by Duskhowl
Why?


Without war we won't have chaos

12/05/2012 01:17 PMPosted by Duskhowl
What motivates them to one faction or another


Family
I had asked myself what Quorthon would do if he one day had no Dark Lady to serve. He cannot stand the Horde, none what so ever. In fact it's a feat in his eyes that he can hide his emotions from them so well.

So no Horde, and his loathing of the Light denies the Argent Crusade. Maybe he'd cast his lot in with something like Roderick Dartfall's Forsaken? *See Horde Players Manual*

Or lol Red Dragon Flight loyalist.
Neutral Faction... well, I'd join that in a heartbeat. Having played both the MMO and the RPG, it's very clear (and confirmed) that the MMO is not even close to the full scale of the setting. It's VERY simplified. There's sooooo much more to Warcraft than the options you're limited to in the MMO.

With that said, neutral factions were already playable in the RPG at least. As for the MMO... well..

The best option would probably be this, as it makes the most sense for it :

http://www.wowpedia.org/Army_of_the_Light
Dusk, I'll try to explain better when I'm at my computer, but it's not so much the case that "Ann can only choose blue or green" as it is "Ann can only choose blue or not blue."

Then again, all that could just be my binary thinking talking again.
No.

Because even Neutral sides... take sides.

*coughs* Dalaran *coughs*
12/05/2012 01:22 PMPosted by Hohenzollern
A two sided war becomes three sided. To bundle neutral factions together would merely create a third faction bent on their own means, regardless if those means are world peace or otherwise.


sounds awesome

let's do it
While I do not believe that a centralized neutral faction that any race could join would not work at all only because Lore wise I do not see certain races getting along. However, there was an idea that myself and a couple of friends toyed around with. Yes it would be completely game changing and would NEVER happen, but it is always a nice idea to discuss. Here is my -idea- persay.

I would suggest a complete faction Over-haul in which the factions are re-done, there would be a few problems and such but still, nice to toy around with.

Alliance: Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Draenei, some Pandaren, some Sin'dorei (Belf) and some Worgen. Why? Well, the first three are the original Hardcore Alliance races in my mind. I may be wrong, But I have also found many Draenei are very pro-Alliance, so I saw them fit best here. The Pandaren because of some of them joining the Alliance in MoP, and half of the Worgen would join the alliance, those who are loyal. I can also see some belfs joining, those who are STILL loyal to the Alliance after all the events of WC3 and Frozen Throne.

(Could not think of a good name) Guardians of Kalimdor: Kaldorei (Nelf), some Shu'halo (Tauren), some Pandaren and some Worgen. Why? Well from my own knowledge, the Tauren and Kaldorei were both in fairly good terms which eachother before their induction into the Horde. And many of them work together and have grown VERY fond of one another because of the Circle and its branches ie. Hyjal. The Kaldorei helped the (Gilnean) Worgen out a lot so I would not be surprised if many of them chose to stay loyal to them as many have such as those in Felwood. Also, the Circle again brings them closer. I can also see a few Pandaren joining this Alliance, those that would be fond of some of these races or some that might still have ties to their past with the Kaldorei. I personally feel that this would be one of the Strongest Factions in terms of politics.

The Horde: Orcs, Trolls, Goblins, some Shu'halo (Tauren) and some Pandaren. Why? Orcs trolls and Goblins are my ideas of the H-core Horde races. I do not know much of their lore so I can obviously be corrected. Some Tauren would be loyal to the Horde but I see equal numbers, maybe even more going to the Kaldorei. Pandaren because of MoP events.

The Forsaken - Silvermoon Co-alition: Sin'dorei (Belf), and Forsaken. Why/ I really have no knowledge on the Lore of the Belfs or the Forsaken. I do know that the Belfs do not like undead but that is as far as I know., I have personally always seen these two working together, but that is just me. Not much to say here because of my lack of lore knowledge.

Obviously this would never ever happen, but its a nice thing to discuss hm?
@Adira: I pose to you many of the same questions posed to those who are for a third faction that does not fall on racial lines. What would make your characters CHOOSE the alliance or horde? What, beyond the brief motivations mentioned, turns them off to the factions? Is there actions or mindsets that get to them? What groups, if any, do they have a personal grudge against? Are there any characters you have that ARE faction supporters? What does motivate them to fight? Why would they benefit from a neutral standing?

@Q: What about the atrocities already committed against the Kaldorei and their lands by the orcish warmachine? The slaying of Cenarius, the killing of their people, an the decimation of their ancestral forests? What about Garrosh's want to exterminate every member of every race that isnt under his thumb?

@Karob: So dwarves and quel'dorei are on his good side, and the others can sorta go hang? I feel I detected some agitation in regards to the Kaldorei. What, may I ask, has sort of soured him, if that is indeed the case, against them?

@Tadkins: In regards to the coalition of the guardians, who are indeed a group who call allegiance only to the sacred land in which they guard, neither the horde nor the alliance are of any real threatening concern. In a natural environment, backed by an inexhaustible source of energy (The Dream and the Elements themselves, plus a supposed leyline for the magi), the guardians are capable of defending themselves. An army can do very little when they cannot breathe, or when the earth opens up to swallow them. A manabomb is an interesting diversion at best when the spirits of air simply throw it back the way it came. When the entire thing can be swallowed in a shield of earth, so the only entrance and exit is a tiny pass, an army is of no use. When undead creatures and demons are openly assaulted by the Dream's attempt a purification, they become limited in their usefulness. Or when a druid plants explosive spores in an area that when trigger become a choking cloud that gets into lungs---and if particularly nasty, perhaps be made to eat you alive from within...How about when your food is devoured by rodents, your mounts refuse to do anything, and the natural world seeks to halt every motion? Even the living bacteria in your belly can be turned against you by a vengeful druid. Add to this the question of "How long would the Green Flight, as well as the Cenarion Circle sit idle and let one side or the other destroy such a place?" and you have the makings of sending an army into a meatgrinder.

And that is not even considering the allies and associates of the guardians who would stand with them. Only the guardians themselves....and I didnt even include the magi among them.

Let's see...What do you mean other factions are left in the dust? The Argents, the Circle, even the Ring and the Ebon Blade still seem to be standing just fine. All are still active in game and in lore in all sorts of areas, independent of the conflict between horde and alliance. And would the alliance and horde still be dominant if the very peoples that make them up walked away? What if the Blood Elves and Trolls decided to go their own way? What if the Kaldorei pulled their forces back to the forests of northern Kalimdor, and consolidated to protect only their ancestral homes? What if the Draenei packed up and left. The goblins get a better offer from another cartel?

@Lurvantis: Care to offer more insight? Why does Chaos intrigue you so?
12/05/2012 05:55 PMPosted by Duskhowl
@Q: What about the atrocities already committed against the Kaldorei and their lands by the orcish warmachine? The slaying of Cenarius, the killing of their people, an the decimation of their ancestral forests? What about Garrosh's want to exterminate every member of every race that isnt under his thumb?
Don't get me wrong, Q herself has witnessed quite a bit of the crimes against the elven people from the orcish kind. She has very little patience and mercy for those that are orc, but, in the time she has progressed - she's seen acts of kindness, acts of mercy that gave her plenty of room to consider her hate and give room for doubt for orc A and orc B. The slayings of Cenarius, the killings of her people, the decimation of her peoples forests, yes they anger her greatly, but she is a woman of tight restraint, and holds her temper and her hate in check. Her experience in the Sentinels as a militant and a commander had given her a great deal of room for growth as a character, and as a neutral entity. Garrosh, in her eyes, is the direct reason and blame for all that the Horde has wrought since the second shattering of the world, and for that reason alone, she would not even think twice to slay him. Any other, she would give room for doubt and reasoning that they may, or may not support his cause and his ruthless brutish reasoning.
12/05/2012 05:55 PMPosted by Duskhowl
@Adira: I pose to you many of the same questions posed to those who are for a third faction that does not fall on racial lines. What would make your characters CHOOSE the alliance or horde? What, beyond the brief motivations mentioned, turns them off to the factions? Is there actions or mindsets that get to them? What groups, if any, do they have a personal grudge against? Are there any characters you have that ARE faction supporters? What does motivate them to fight? Why would they benefit from a neutral standing?


If there was a motivating factor to choose sides in the conflict, all four would go Alliance simply because this Horde is not the Horde we can predict and somewhat come to peaceful terms with. Belandris still looks the part of High Elf, so she'd mix in easily. Medasia would not have chosen to partake, and still look like a High Elf. Adira has a perfect excuse to go Alliance if necessitated, Blackrock orcs. Arimeia, well...No Gilnean enjoys the Forsaken, do they?

The main reason for their distancing from both factions is clearly what they have seen in Pandaria lately. It doesn't take a gnomish engineer to see what uncontrolled war can do in that land, and that effect can come home to roost. As Medasia would succintly put it, "Garrosh is a good-for-nothing orc that only cares for his own pride before discretion or valor." Damning words if you ask me. Adira's opinion of the Alliance is more telling in that "they fight one shadow, but fail to see the larger more looming one. And I can't do a blessed thing to stop it in this environment." She is a Utilitarian with Ethical shades; she does as she sees fit, and she can't in open war. Belandris is very damning, "Butchering idiots, the whole lot of them." Arimeia wouldn't say a word; she'd just look at you cross, and you don't want her looking at you cross.

What motivates all four to fight? They are protectors at heart, all four. They can, and will, fight for an eternity if they could if it meant a safer world. Adira is a good example of this, several years of Hunting darkcasters and demons...Her war has no end in sight, though. This current conflict can be ended. She'd rather just do her job, fight her shadow war.

Benefits of a nuetral standing? Arimeia already has them to a degree. She can do her bloody job, keeping the land healed and safe. Adira, perhaps, can get back to fighting her war in her way without needing to run into obstacles created by this current war. Medasia and Belandris both are simple compared to this; they just wish to live peacefully and quietly. Though Medasia would like to live such with her winery creating some decent profit.

The only character I have that would be ardent Alliance is Graiya, a paladin and Knight of the Silver Hand. Even then, she would serve in a spiritual capacity, not a combatant one.
@Felthier: These factions have really only existed for a handful of decades. Some of the peoples in them havent been in them for more than ten or fifteen years. What makes a people so committed to these ideals that change would be impossible? Clearly Lorthremar doesnt think so--there is dialogue implying that he is reconsidering the faction his people are a part of. Is it because up til now there has been no viable alternative? Or because they are TRULY committed to the cause? And what about those fringe members, who dont really fit with their own culture or those who want to take a stand for what they believe in? And how have none of the neutral factions truly benefitted Azeroth in the same way? Was it not the Earthen Ring who led the charge to restore the pillar in deepholme, while Horde and Alliance were fighting each other? What about the defense of mount hyjal? Was that led by the horde and alliance, or did members of both just answer the call of the Guardians of Hyjal? What great feats have -EITHER- side been solely responsible for without the urging of the neutral factions?


So the examples that you gave where in times of crisis that threatened the way of life of all the people in Azeroth. As it stands there is a war that is on the brink of doing the same thing. If either faction were to triumph, Azeroth would fall into chaos.

When I say that we, as human beings, do not have the capacity in our relative life experiences to understand the internal conflict that wound ensue if we were to abandon our race, (all human beings) and join a separate faction is outlandish. While not impossible, it would have to be a choice made with a full heart of consideration.

Honestly, I know that the factions are shelved as per the framers intent, it wouldn't be wrong for factioned members of either faction to see neutrals as cowards. The premise of all the neutral factions that appear in game is to save Azeroth from catastrophic events. At the moment they are sitting idle and doing nothing. They allow atrocities to be committed by either faction while the world goes up into flames around them. Are they too afraid to act? Or once you put on a grey tabard you lose the will to fight?
join neutral faction

kill night elves get money

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