Why don't paladins have defensive stands?

Paladin
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Our heals completely suck , and I have no idea how people think WoG heals for alot which heals me for 30k and flash of light for about the same , The only way I could actually have some real heals is if i popped cd's and inquistion.

Warriors have mass spell reflection and have a spell that can parry/block most attacks from another melee , not to mention second wind. Well that's something else too , I'm not that bad , but I can't seem to be able to burst trough a second wind without cds , not without all those defensive stands.

Sure we might have bubble , but what will that do? Buy you an extra 7 seconds of life before you get killed? Divine Shield is only viable for holy paladins , not really much for rets.

I'm just having a hard time with warriors , I would give bubble , flash of light , and WoG anyday for the stuff warriors got.
Then...Roll a Warrior? Seriously, we're not Warriors so we don't get the same kit - why is that so hard for people to understand?

Also, no one has a Defensive "Stand," FYI.
I mean as in , for us to get a defensive block or something. Warriors are %*@#!@%**@ retadins right now.
No, we are the Retadins; they're still Warriors.
I went into the local store, they had a defensive stand out the front
We can change seals instead of stances. Seal of Insight will drop your dps, but improve your healing (read: active mitigation). Similarly, when a warrior or monk changes to a defensive stance, their survivability goes up, but their damage goes down.

If it makes you feel better, think of your seals as stances.

Now you don't have to have an issue.
SoI is not the same as Defensive Stance, Blood Presence, or Bear Form. All of those provide considerable health, armour, and/or raw mitigation buffs, and are passive. That said, I don't really want one for PvP (but something PvE related attached to RF would be nice so that we could actually emergency tank), but the Cata Sacred Shield would be nice,or something like it - some form of passive mitigation or healing that's not from a dispelable talent.
SoI is not the same as Defensive Stance, Blood Presence, or Bear Form. All of those provide considerable health, armour, and/or raw mitigation buffs, and are passive.


Much of the healing from SOI is, in fact, passive healing . . . and healing is now squarely part of a paladin's mitigation, hence SOI being the seal meant for tanking. And SOI doesn't just give healing.

EDIT: And now, it's not the same as others' defensive stances. But then, there aren't multiple threads in the tank forums asking for seals because they seem to be aware that some tanks are different from others. Some classes are different from others.

We're not supposed to all be the same. We're special in that we have seals instead of stances. If you want to PvP with a dps spec that has no seals but stances, there are several to choose from.

Much of the healing from SOI is, in fact, passive healing . . . and healing is now squarely part of a paladin's mitigation, hence SOI being the seal meant for tanking. And SOI doesn't just give healing.

It's not truly passive at all. It requires that you be hitting stuff. It doesn't work at range, and it really, really doesn't work when you're stunned or feared, and that's when we need some form of mitigation most.

We're not supposed to all be the same. We're special in that we have seals instead of stances.
Yes, and it means that we have no passive mitigation options when being focussed, and nor do we for when there's a need for an emergency tank for 5-10s. The best we can do it taunt and kite, and maybe taunt and bubble (buys 3s from the fixate before the boss realises we're bubbled and goes to eat someone else).

Much of the healing from SOI is, in fact, passive healing . . . and healing is now squarely part of a paladin's mitigation, hence SOI being the seal meant for tanking. And SOI doesn't just give healing.

It's not truly passive at all. It requires that you be hitting stuff. It doesn't work at range, and it really, really doesn't work when you're stunned or feared, and that's when we need some form of mitigation most.

We're not supposed to all be the same. We're special in that we have seals instead of stances.
Yes, and it means that we have no passive mitigation options when being focussed, and nor do we for when there's a need for an emergency tank for 5-10s. The best we can do it taunt and kite, and maybe taunt and bubble (buys 3s from the fixate before the boss realises we're bubbled and goes to eat someone else).


If you want to PvP with a dps spec that has no seals but stances, there are several to choose from.
I said in my first post that I didn't want stances. What I would like is something like the Cata SS - a passive form of mitigation that is Paladin-like and not a 'stance'. For PvE something attached to RF like "gives 6% less chance to take critical hits from NPCs" would be nice - just something that would make emergency tanking a little more pleasant. Heck, make that function vs everything, and lets us run round in PvP with RF up - it's still less passive mitigation than many classes run with.
For PvE . . . just something that would make emergency tanking a little more pleasant.


If you're emergency tanking, you're hitting something, which means you're getting passive heals from SoI, which surely helps you emergency tank.

You're already in plate and have quite a few tools at your disposal to help you survive.
12/05/2012 10:52 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
Then...Roll a Warrior?


I really hate when people says something like this. Man, his one of us, he's posting this here because he wants to get better with his player skills.

Every paladin in this planet knows that's a little hard to fight against warriors. And the only thing you say is: "roll a warrior" ?

Why doesn't give hints or something?

Like: "Man, try seal of insight when his full hp, then switch to seal of truth when the talent of regenerating is activate and use your burst. If he uses his burst first than you, use blind followed by stun and try to kite him. This will help a lot."

If you're emergency tanking, you're hitting something, which means you're getting passive heals from SoI, which surely helps you emergency tank.

Because SoI's 5K heal per proc helps ever so much when a raid boss is in your face.

If you're emergency tanking, you're hitting something, which means you're getting passive heals from SoI, which surely helps you emergency tank.

Because SoI's 5K heal per proc helps ever so much when a raid boss is in your face.


Do I really have to go into all of the other tools you have at your disposal to add with this?

It's my belief that if you're having problems emergency tanking in a 5man as we are currently, then you just shouldn't be trying to be an emergency tank. Just leave it to the warlock or the druid in the group. Or maybe even the hunter's pet.
Last time I checked, no class had Defensive Stands.
12/05/2012 10:48 PMPosted by Pallysrus
Divine Shield is only viable for holy paladins , not really much for rets.


And there is where I stopped reading.
level up another class. and when you are upset with that one roll another one. and then after you level up every one to 90 and you realize that there isnt a class that has everything then maybe you'll finally get it. Or maybe you will just come to the forums to cry.

Or maybe you should start you cries like this: I want my dual weilding paladin with a shield on his back for extra mitigation from behind. I wanna be able to dual wield 2 handers and Bows, guns, and crossbows. I want holy combo points with holy poisons, a holy charge, a holy heroic leap, and a holy grip. I want a holy typhoon, and a holy cyclone, then I want holy stealth of course. and why cant I turn into a holy bear? I want that too. Holy kitten as well. And why dont I have a holy travel form. And they already gave us a class mount, where is my class flying mount? like holy flying bear. And why dont I have an option for a holy pet. Not a temporary guardian bs, I'm talking pet. It's like I could tame it from the wild. Like convert it to follow the light. and then it'll just follow me around. And finally just for those pvp situations, Holy tactical nuke, that way were finally balanced with warlocks, warriors, and every other class.

There your request is pending.
12/06/2012 04:08 AMPosted by Craios
Then...Roll a Warrior?


I really hate when people says something like this. Man, his one of us, he's posting this here because he wants to get better with his player skills.

Every paladin in this planet knows that's a little hard to fight against warriors. And the only thing you say is: "roll a warrior" ?

Why doesn't give hints or something?

Like: "Man, try seal of insight when his full hp, then switch to seal of truth when the talent of regenerating is activate and use your burst. If he uses his burst first than you, use blind followed by stun and try to kite him. This will help a lot."


"Roll a Warrior" seems the best response for gripes about not having a Warrior's tools. I mean, FFS, we're not Warriors; we're Paladins. You want the faceroll, global experience? Roll a bloody Warrior and GTFO. You want to become a better Paladin? Ask for help instead of whining about the tools another class has.
We can change seals instead of stances. Seal of Insight will drop your dps, but improve your healing (read: active mitigation). Similarly, when a warrior or monk changes to a defensive stance, their survivability goes up, but their damage goes down.


Pretty much this. When I'm getting swarmed in PvE by accidentally overpulling some mobs, I switch from Truth to Inisght. I quit using Templar's Verdict and feed all my Holy Power into WoG. The regular parts of my rotation- using Holy Prism as an AoE / Selfless Healer on myself when it's full-proc'd remain the same (along with Hammer of the Righteous in lieu of Crusader Strike). I can generally pull around ten mobs at the Golden Stair doing that without endangering myself to where Divine Shield or Lay on Hands need to be invoked.

Just play defensively.

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