MSV 4/6, where to next?

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
So this group has been 4/6 for coming on 4 weeks now (well, miss Kings last week due to second night pugs), and our dps is not really ready for Elegon yet. I was curious where we should turn next? HoF or ToES? Both fights sound fairly straight forward but just curious what the difficulty order might be?

And for the tool that will mention it, yes my gear is a mess. 3 upgrades that need to be accounted for will do that.
You can't do Terrace unless you've got someone with an Empress kill.

Our raid was in a similar position. We did 4/6 --> Vizier --> Elegon --> Will --> Blade Lord, although we looked at Blade Lord before Elegon. This is probably what I'd recommend.

If you can kill Elegon, you can kill Will; it's not free loot, but it's definitely easier. We found Vizier easier than Elegon, but Blade Lord had some rough bits for us.
First boss of HoF is really easy numbers-wise compared to elegon. The enrage timer is generous, and our first kill was with 3 DPS dead. There's not too much to be healed except during F&V, and the rare instances when you have to heal a 3-stack exhale and are short a healer from MCs or the exhale stun itself. One thing I can't emphasize enough- make sure your raiders practice in LFR first or you'll waste a lot of time while your players learn how to deal with attenuation.

We headed to Tayak next and we're really close. His mechanics are simple too but we still have too many players derping on the tornadoes. Same thing- make your raiders do LFR to practice.
i seen lots of guilds skip elagon and tackle first boss HoF and get it down before elagon. you and your group should give it a go. elagon is a challenge, i think a bit out of snyc with the rest of MSV, he almost seems like he should be a bonus boss or something, very tightly tuned.

i think HoF would be good and besides giving you strong loot you get to put confidence in your raiders for downing new content, so its a win win.

good luck.
Elegon will make or break you. It is the true check in MSV. Vizier is definitely doable if it is a dps issue with elegon. If ppl can get the mechanics for attenuation down you should be fine. Even if one person is fail you should be able to complete it. I have always killed it with one or two ppl dieing without ever hitting the enrage timer. Well all three times at least lol. But i had numerous failures to learn from.
If you have someone with a Grand emp kill protectors are probably the easiest but Vizier and Bladelord in HoF are also pushovers.
Should've made you have to go 6/6 MSV to get in HoF like Terrace imo.
Thanks all. We'll hit up Vizier then assuming a clean run tonight (which with Kings being altered should be the case).

And yeah, having done Elegon on my priest and once on this guy, I am hoping a few more weeks and we'll get our dps up to par. Course, I gotta figure out a good CD rotation fro Orbs yet.
12/05/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Platform
Should've made you have to go 6/6 MSV to get in HoF like Terrace imo.

If there weren't so many people stuck on Elegon, I might agree with you.
Either the locks need to be progressively more difficult or ideally, not exist at all.

The fact that both Vizier and Blade Lord are easier than Elegon, means people who can't kill Elegon shouldn't be locked from killing those two. It's just silly.

Same thing could be said about Protectors.
If there weren't so many people stuck on Elegon, I might agree with you.
Either the locks need to be progressively more difficult or ideally, not exist at all.

The fact that both Vizier and Blade Lord are easier than Elegon, means people who can't kill Elegon shouldn't be locked from killing those two. It's just silly.

Same thing could be said about Protectors.


Having bosses that are harder and easier in different positions of linear progression (In terms of the instances, to clarify) has always been around. Heroic Ultraxion was a joke during Dragon Soul, where as Zon'ozz was more difficult. Spine was more difficult than Madness. Marrowgar was more difficult than Gunship...etc.

It makes the content last longer for people, especially since that's what people have been complaining about--content growing stale.

Where exactly is the line supposed to be drawn between acceptable difficulty and unacceptable difficulty? Won't lie, our guild saw 50 wipes on normal Elegon (lol) before we finally downed it. Ironically, 45ish of those wipes were literally us using the worst strategy in the world and wiping at 5-7% last phase for the majority of the times. We did 1 minor change to our strategy and killed it in less than 30 minutes.

I really don't see how Elegon can be a difficult fight unless you seriously lack a decent amount of class knowledge, and/or using a bad raid strategy. It's very straightforward.
ToES isn't an option, typically, if you're stuck on Elegon normal, since you have to clear HoF to get in there (or have somebody who is way above you in your raid that has cleared 6/6 HoF).

Elegon's DPS and healing requirements aren't that bad if you do it properly, as long as you aren't in greens. If you're having trouble getting him down, work on optimizing your strat.

If it's the final phase causing you problems, then work on getting another orb or two down in each phase 2. Have DPS pop their CDs on the last 1 or 2 orbs to help get that last one down. Very importantly, have a number in mind. Don't just go until you can't go anymore. Say 4 per phase is your goal. Once you've killed the 4th one, all DPS should ignore the next wave and use that time as free boss DPS time rather than wasting it trying to kill the next wave of orbs. This is actually a substantial bit of DPS time on the boss when you do it in both phase 2s, and if you're not using it, the fight is going to be more difficult.

If phase 1s are a problem (getting 3 protectors in the first phase 1? you should try to get it down to just 2), then optimize your strat for that. Bring it into melee for them to cleave down. Once it's brought down to 50%, have all of your ranged switch back to the boss and let the tank and melee finish it off near the edge, where they need to go to drop stacks anyway. This is also more important than you might think. You need to push through phase 1s faster, and the way to judge how fast you're getting through it is by how many adds you're letting the boss spawn.

Are people dying to the little adds summoned after pillars die? Then again, your strat isn't working too well. All of the pillars need to die at the same time to limit the number of adds he spawns, since he gains haste (summons them faster) each time you kill a pillar. If you kill 2 sets at the same time and are waiting for the 3rd set, he's got 2 stacks of his haste buff and will be spamming out adds constantly for a much longer time. Get them all down simultaneously so the time he's spawning adds with any haste buffs is much shorter.

If you do these things correctly, then he should be very manageable for a group that's cleared the first 4 bosses.
Should've made you have to go 6/6 MSV to get in HoF like Terrace imo.

If there weren't so many people stuck on Elegon, I might agree with you.
Either the locks need to be progressively more difficult or ideally, not exist at all.

The fact that both Vizier and Blade Lord are easier than Elegon, means people who can't kill Elegon shouldn't be locked from killing those two. It's just silly.

Same thing could be said about Protectors.


I see things like 3/4 Terrace being a joke as more of a nice reward after the more difficult fights of Amber Shaper and Empress. I like that you must defeat these bosses first, but then you're rewarded with some free loot right after, including 503s from protectors, since normal elite is such a joke. I used it as a way to get my raiders to refocus after wipes, reminding them that there's even more loot from another easy boss or two once we get the current difficult boss down.
12/05/2012 08:48 AMPosted by Platform
I really don't see how Elegon can be a difficult fight unless you seriously lack a decent amount of class knowledge, and/or using a bad raid strategy. It's very straightforward.

It's probably the least straight-forward boss in MoP right now, with Garalon being very similar. That should be obvious, given that these are the biggest brickwall bosses.

People keep saying "Elegon is easy, just follow these instructions:" and then they post a giant freakin' wall of text. You can summarize most bosses pretty adequately with maybe one paragraph but Elegon is much more complex.
People keep saying "Elegon is easy, just follow these instructions:" and then they post a giant freakin' wall of text. You can summarize most bosses pretty adequately with maybe one paragraph but Elegon is much more complex.


Kill protectors. Reset high stacks in the first 2 P1s. Kill 4-5 sets of orbs. Kill pylons when they spawn. AoE adds.

There, not even a full paragraph.
12/05/2012 10:20 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
People keep saying "Elegon is easy, just follow these instructions:" and then they post a giant freakin' wall of text. You can summarize most bosses pretty adequately with maybe one paragraph but Elegon is much more complex.


Kill protectors. Reset high stacks in the first 2 P1s. Kill 4-5 sets of orbs. Kill pylons when they spawn. AoE adds.

There, not even a full paragraph.

Tank protectors where?
Should I move them at some point, and where to?
When do melee reset their stacks?
Reset at how many stacks?
Should I run out, and back in?
Or maybe is there a 'secret' spot on the floor where I can just tap my jump key?
How do we handle Protectors and phase transitions?
Where do the tanks go on Orbs?
What's the best way to split DPS on the orbs?
What's the kill order on the pylons?
How about splitting DPS properly on both sides, does it matter?
How should tanks handle the adds + Elegon re-appearing?
Where should the tanks pull them?
Do we reset stacks on the burn phase?
Stack up, or spread out, stand near the edge for stack resetting?
How do the tanks handle that phase?

So many unanswered, wipe-inducing, hair-ripping questions...
It's probably the least straight-forward boss in MoP right now, with Garalon being very similar. That should be obvious, given that these are the biggest brickwall bosses.

People keep saying "Elegon is easy, just follow these instructions:" and then they post a giant freakin' wall of text. You can summarize most bosses pretty adequately with maybe one paragraph but Elegon is much more complex.


Kill protectors. Reset high stacks in the first 2 P1s. Kill 4-5 sets of orbs. Kill pylons when they spawn. AoE adds.

There, not even a full paragraph.


Tank protectors where?
Should I move them at some point, and where to?
Reset at how many stacks?
Should I run out, and back in?
Or maybe is there a 'secret' spot on the floor where I can just tap my jump key?
Where do the tanks go on Orbs?
What's the best way to split DPS on the orbs?
What's the kill order on the pylons?
How about splitting DPS properly on both sides, does it matter?
How should tanks handle the adds + Elegon re-appearing?
Where should the tanks pull them?
Do we reset stacks on the burn phase?
Stack up, or spread out?
How do the tanks handle that phase?

So many unanswered, wipe-inducing, hair-ripping questions...


Reset stacks when overwhelming. Tank protectors in the circle near the edge. Take outside and finish off when at low percentages of health. Dispel healing debuff. Tanks taunt to reset stacks. Divide the raid appropriately to dps orbs. Don't stand in the center when pylons come up. Kill pylons at relatively the same time. AoE adds down. Repeat sentences 1-5. Repeat sentences 6-9. Burn the boss.

There, ten, short sentences.

In fact, honestly, some of your questions are just questions you're adding in to try to increase the volume of the claim you're trying to make. Specifically, the ones I underlined in your quote.
12/05/2012 10:26 AMPosted by Platform
Reset stacks when overwhelming. Tank protectors in the circle near the edge. Take outside and finish off when at low percentages of health. Dispel healing debuff. Tanks taunt to reset stacks. Divide the raid appropriately to dps orbs. Don't stand in the center when pylons come up. Kill pylons at relatively the same time. AoE adds down. Repeat sentences 1-5. Repeat sentences 6-9. Burn the boss.

Why tank near the edge?
What is a "low percentage" and what happens above and below that percentage, to make moving them off the floor necessary?
Should anyone else in the raid do anything at that time, or just the tanks?
Which mob applies the healing debuff, how often, and how important is it?
When do tanks do taunt resets, and how does that impact picking up adds?
Should we make a kill order for the pylons for the group? Does the order itself matter?
How do we make sure pylons are dying at the same time, and why?
Where do the adds go, exactly?
Should the DPS be on the boss or the adds, on the floor or off?
Where should the add tank be?
"Burn the boss?" Reset stacks, or no?
Should rdps be stacked on the edge for resets, or in melee for easier heals?
Should we run out of melee to reset?
What about the tanks, do they reset?

Add a few more sentences to your reply, I'll give you more unanswered questions, you'll add a few more sentences. By the end of this, we'll have a novel.

In fact, honestly, some of your questions are just questions you're adding in to try to increase the volume of the claim you're trying to make. Specifically, the ones I underlined in your quote.

You can't be vague, ignoring KEY MECHANICS about the encounter, and then claim it's easy. You're both totally ignoring Protector mechanics and acting like it's unimportant, when it'll cause a wipe within the first 30 seconds of the boss... Nice.
Why tank near the edge?
What is a "low percentage" and what happens above and below that percentage, to make moving them off the floor necessary?
Should anyone else in the raid do anything at that time, or just the tanks?
Which mob applies the healing debuff, how often, and how important is it?
When do tanks do taunt resets, and how does that impact picking up adds?
Should we make a kill order for the pylons for the group? Does the order itself matter?
How do we make sure pylons are dying at the same time, and why?
Where do the adds go, exactly?
Should the DPS be on the boss or the adds, on the floor or off?
Where should the add tank be?
"Burn the boss?" Reset stacks, or no?
Should rdps be stacked on the edge for resets, or in melee for easier heals?
Should we run out of melee to reset?
What about the tanks, do they reset?


You asked for a summary. A summary is different than a drawn out explanation.
12/05/2012 10:38 AMPosted by Platform
You asked for a summary. A summary is different than a drawn out explanation.

You could summarize quantum physics with 1 sentence, that doesn't mean it's simple.
Summarize Elegon with 1 sentence if you want... He's still the most complex boss in MoP right now.
12/05/2012 10:35 AMPosted by Zionic
ignoring KEY MECHANICS about the encounter,


...I didn't know a secret jumping up and down spot on Elegon was key.

12/05/2012 10:35 AMPosted by Zionic
Protector mechanics


12/05/2012 10:35 AMPosted by Zionic
KEY


...Wut.

Pull him out of the circle before 25%.

GG.

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