Trinket Burst Damage Adjustments

Arenas
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Draxx, I realize this is going to sound cynical, but that fact that THIS is the change you make is a very, very clear sign the Development team has no idea what the actual problems are.

This could not be more depressing if you all had done it for the purpose of making depressing.
Draxx, I realize this is going to sound cynical, but that fact that THIS is the change you make is a very, very clear sign the Development team has no idea what the actual problems are.

This could not be more depressing if you all had done it for the purpose of making depressing.


The following can apply to you as well Jessqt:

Draxx, I realize this is going to sound cynical, but that fact that THIS is the change you make is a very, very clear sign the Development team has no idea what the actual problems are.

This could not be more depressing if you all had done it for the purpose of making depressing.


Ok I'm not attacking you or anything... but I want to hear it stated plainly for once.

In your own opinion... what are the problems you think the playerbase (as a whole... not just yourself) is having with pvp?

and if "burst" is one of those problems... what is the issue with how they have just handled it?

again I'm not trying to be smart or anything... I just want those two questions plainly answered in full.


I am very very VERY sick of people ether giving non responses or saying "there are tons of other threads that say why" as a way to give a non answer.

Answer the questions plainly please.
Smite was clearly too OP 7k is WAAAAYYYYY too much damage. This trinket nerf might finally put those disc priests that like doing damage in their place. The pvp power nerf clearly wasn't enough and the overall reduction ever since wrath wasn't enough either.

Two reasons why this doesn't make sense:

1. It's not the trinkets, it's the specs.
2. This effects all classes so the net effect is just helping the specs from reason number 1.


On a serious note: this guy has the right idea. blanketing nerfs is a dumb way to balance. My double on use trinkets were my last feeble attempt at making this class interesting. Guess that's not even goiing to be a viable choice anymore.
I just hope that they don't start nerfing pve trinks once they find out that those are bursty.

I suppose it wouldn't be too bad, just sort of the principle that my gameplay can be changed for the sake of something I don't have anything to do with annoys me a bit.

Oh well.
Uhhhhhh, there is too much burst but there is still the blanket 15% healing debuff?

Remove the debuff like you guys said you would.


This would be horrible. Burst damage is out of control but so is burst healing. People go from 100% to 20% against a warrior/frost mage with all CDs popped. However, they go from 20% to 100% with one healer global the whole game. When a druid is in tree form everyone is pretty much at 100%.

Ok I'm not attacking you or anything... but I want to hear it stated plainly for once.

In your own opinion... what are the problems you think the playerbase (as a whole... not just yourself) is having with pvp?

and if "burst" is one of those problems... what is the issue with how they have just handled it?

again I'm not trying to be smart or anything... I just want those two questions plainly answered in full.

I am very very VERY sick of people ether giving non responses or saying "there are tons of other threads that say why" as a way to give a non answer.

Answer the questions plainly please.


Such easy questions to answer if you took a while to read or even to experiment in rated arenas. Anyway, let me enlighten you with my knowledge, which has also gathered a lot of feedback from posts, friends and high rated players on the subject.

The PvP Playerbase is currently experiencing many issues, which most of them are derivatives of the insane amount of burst some classes are able to dish out when certain things align. By many issues I mean healers complaining that their defensive cooldowns are not in par with the insane burst, classes complaining (some in all due fairness) that their damage is useless in most rated cases. People complaining that they get globalled (term used to say that you got killed in a "global cooldown" which isn't always 100% accurate, but it's a good comparison to getting 1-shot / 2-shot).

Allow me to further explain now. You can't always burst someone just like that, even with cooldowns up, it isn't that easy. As I said, some stuff has to align pretty well to pull it off. For example, making sure that the enemies have the least cooldowns possible, making sure that you can disable them for an appropiate time in which you can get your damage off, making sure that your ONE-SHOT-MACRO is up, and most importantly, making sure that you aren't going to be CC'ed in the process and that you get insane criticals. BUT, if you have made everything happen, killing something requires 3-4 button presses that deal INSANE damage. Damage that you can't just heal or mitigate like you usually would because it happened TOO FAST.

One of the best examples that I've been witness of, are frost mages. Takes one deep freeze (note that it doesnt have a global cooldown if glyphed) so you can cast right away (1 second in PvP is a BIG DEAL) with all cooldowns popped it will take the mage 2 seconds to pull everything off (there are many ways to do it).
Deep Freeze -> Frost bomb cast -> Instant Frostfire bolt -> Ice Lance -> Ice Lance while bomb detonates (or make it detonate with glyph of fireblast). Result = Over 400K damage while stunned. On top of that throw a blanket silence + instant ice lances and anything dies.
The problem with that rotation is that it can be repeated every time Deep Freeze is off cooldown (well, when the team is ready to burst actually, but still) which is 45sec if im not wrong.

Now, what you should notice is that mage damage is only that insane because EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING is a critical strike during the deep freeze. Other classes can do this too, like Warriors with just one crit hitting you for 200k (again, if everything aligns perfectly) on top of the healing reduction and 2 attacks per global + auto attack. That's a lot of damage.

I know I am making this too long, but I need to get it out there.

The insane burst has brought problems with it. Healing is also TOO BURSTY. With just instant casts a shaman/paladin/druid can get themselves up pretty quickly. Doesn't always happen, but when it does it ruins your whole burst preparation. Along with the possibility of LoSing with pilars and walls. And with this comes many other issues.

To balance PVP:
The truth is you can't fix one thing without ruining another, because that's just how PvP works. It all has to be fixed at the same time to make it work. (It's too much to ask for, I know).

In all my due honesty, I believe, in fact, I am certain, that if blizzard makes resilience reduce critical hit damage (remember my explanation about criticals making everything incredibly broken) then the burst will be fixed. Along with cooldown stacking which amplifies your damage, but I don't think increasing your dps is an issue in PvP, the only issue shows up when that DPS comes from insanely high criticals made in 2 seconds. Therefore, once that change is implemented, burst will no longer be retarded to the point that it can kill you in a global. Next thing to balance along with that would be healing. It would be absolutely no fun to never be able to kill anything, that's why healing should be toned down too. In fact, I believe PvP healers should run out of mana 3 times as fast as they do now. This would prevent incredibly long matches/fights but also wouldn't lose you the fight due to insane burst.
I am very very VERY sick of people ether giving non responses or saying "there are tons of other threads that say why" as a way to give a non answer.

Answer the questions plainly please.


Okay, that's easy enough.

The problem is that even without trinkets up, it is entirely too easy to annihilate some within a few seconds.

That there is so much crowd control that certain comps can almost indefinitely take one of your teammates out of the fight. There have always been crowd control elements in the game, but they are saturated to insanity at this point.

That the same burst issues existed in this game since the very first Beta patch, and nothing of any actual substance has been done to seriously address these issues. They were voiced very early on, and completely ignored.

That's why this is depressing. It's like bleeding out from a gunshot wound, and someone walks up and puts a coat on you.

Is it going to make you feel better? Yes. Is it going to stop you from bleeding out? No.
I just hope that they don't start nerfing pve trinks once they find out that those are bursty.

I suppose it wouldn't be too bad, just sort of the principle that my gameplay can be changed for the sake of something I don't have anything to do with annoys me a bit.

Oh well.


Bosses don't care and don't complain in the forums if you crit them for insane amounts, as long as your DPS doesn't go off the sustainable charts. Stop thinking they are messing with PVE just because burst is insane. If anything, in all the changed they've made they have tried not to touch PvE damage dealing at all
I'm not saying that things are bursty in pve, I'm saying that he mentioned that pve trinks might start being used in pvp, at which point they'd nerf them.
Im all for this if they make the on-use trinkets unique-equip and/or implement a full pvp power medallion for us non-humans.

Also offer an option for engineering to have a flat 320 stat glove enchant (or allow the glove on use to at the same time as the trinket, which i think would contradict their wanting to limit on demand burst).

I would also like to see a balancing of professions right now blacksmithing is too good, and jewelcrafting is gimped. The other crafting professions are equally as good, but all professions except for blacksmithing lack the ability to prioritize secondary stats over base stats. Some specs have weights that clearing make 2 of a secondary stat > 1 base stat, but don't get to use their profession to emphasize what is actually best for them. I apologize for the tangent.
I'm conscious that wow is a money making scheme, and I guess making classes FOTM and others UP for a season, and then alternating these classes (except Mages, we all know that mages are perma-T1) for the next season must equal more overall subscribers, even taking into account those that quit in disgust. But I simply wish this wasn't the case, this whole realisation has me disillusioned, is no hobby sacred from greed? /end rant.

I guess the nerf to trinkets is the step in acknowledging one of the faults with pvp... but what about the extreme outliers this season? This nerfs the middle/lower tier classes with equal severity.

Where is the Blue post acknowledging the classes that have beastmode burst, and the classes that are mediocre at best?
What about battlemaster trinkets?
trinkets

are

not

the

problem

...

people get globalled even without on-use trinkets, and you think this is the problem?
12/06/2012 08:22 PMPosted by Sneaknaround
It seems like player feedback is saying it's certain specs, not trinkets...


but what do r1 glads know about burst in arena?

nope, they must not know anything about high level pvp. clearly the devs know something they dont.
CC is bigest problem along with few other combine.
"Trinket burst has made PvP unbalance and unfun."

"Human racial gives them an extra PvP trinket, but that is completely balanced and fun."

Makes perfect sense.


"Every man for himself is Op"

"Nearly every top end arena player went horde for will of the forsaken"

also makes perfect sense.
Even with Battle Fatigue I still see groups of people trying in vain for a whole BG to take down one healer class that can somehow keep himself at near 100% health at all times. IF burst damage is "out of control" then what's going to happen when it is "under control"? Right now the only thing I have seen that truly counters some of the outrageous heals in pvp IS burst damage. Trying to kill a OP healer once burst is nerfed will be like trying to carve stone with a plastic knife. Hmmm..lets see..PROBLEM: pvp healing was OP..solution..give every class a debuff to help counter that.(Problem still exists) NEXT PROBLEM: Burst damage "out of control" SOLUTION: Nerf burst damage-END RESULT: OP healing again. Rinse and repeat...the only area where I see burst being OP at points is against non healing classes. I understand the idea of "balance" but is it actually an attainable goal? And,yes, I have a priest I use in pvp and you have no idea how many people were saved from death by the burst damage done to me when a DK or warrior couldn't drop my priest. So I see both sides of the coin quite well.

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