Tirion, Leader of the Silver Hand?

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12/08/2012 10:29 PMPosted by Valius
Paladin Lore IMO crapped out ever since the discovery of the Light was on Faith based IMO. It's just something I really disagree with.


Personally, I think any and all information on how the Light works should have been kept a mystery, similar to Elune and the Titans.
My personal thing is no such thing as evil paladins IMO. I know that may seem narrowminded but that's what I considered Paladins....

Has nothing to do with Alliance being lawful good(Even though they are before someone personally attacks me)
To me, its important to give Human and Dwarf paladins more identity beyond the generic paladin schtick we have going now. Similar to the Blood Knights and Sunwalkers, paladins need to be given some form of representation in the game, which could be anything from having NPCs in the field, tabards and banners around our training area, or just reference in current quest and gossip text.

The best well "class" (paladin order) lore in WoW has always been the Blood Knights in TBC. They have 1) Clear hierarchy and leadership 2) Heraldry 3) In-game reference via npcs, quests, and gossip text 4) Purpose and goals and 5) origin. Their quests often make reference to how the player is a blood knight and the Blood Knight order. Their trainers and affiliated npcs have the Blood Knight tag/title and wear the Blood Knight tabard/armor. And they have a leader.

All other player paladin organizations lack most of these things, with Silver Hand paladins lacking all of them save 5). And even then, we don't know if the Silver Hand still exists due to the Argent Crusade.

Personally, I think that Human and Dwarf paladins should be organized into a new Paladin order (Order of Northshire? Order of the Hammer?). One with new heraldry (probably that of the Church of Light), a defined leader, and actual NPC presence in WoW. In addition, Draenei paladins should get their own lvl 20 and 50 class quest, seeing as they have their own order.
Personally, I think that Human and Dwarf paladins should be organized into a new Paladin order (Order of Northshire? Order of the Hammer?). One with new heraldry (probably that of the Church of Light), a defined leader, and actual NPC presence in WoW.


Remember that the silver hand iconography greatly predates the paladin order. It's the symbol of Watcher Tyr, a paragon of order and justice. An exemplar of courage and self-sacrifice.

That's a powerful symbol. We shouldn't throw it away and try to start from scratch - we should embrace it.

Decorate the Cathedral of Light and Hall of Mysteries with Silver Hand flags and banners (of the sort seen in old Stratholme). At 50th level, when the blood elf paladins get their Blood Knight tabards, human and dwarven paladins should get Silver Hand tabards (just like the Tabard of the Lightbringer, minus the use effect). The paladin trainers of Stormwind and Khaz Modan should be wearing those tabards too.

Those trainers may be stuck with the <Paladin Trainer> title, but when Alliance paladins appear abroad they should have titles like <Knight of the Silver Hand> or <Order of the Silver Hand>. You could even give "of the Silver Hand" titles to PCs (with paladins of other races getting a title appropriate to their order).

The Silver Hand also needs strong characters to represent it. Bring Turalyon back. Give some character development to Grayson Shadowbreaker and Arator the Redeemer. Introduce Judge Malthred, as a Judge Dredd-style inquisitor figure, to provide some contrast (or even conflict) within the order.

Play up the association with Watcher Tyr. The dwarven paladins, in particular, should be very interested in the titanic inspiration for their order. They could work to discover his fate or even bring him into the Alliance (at which point Tyr would become to the Order of the Silver Hand what Cenarius is to the Cenarion Circle).

The Knights of the Silver Hand still have the potential for greatness - they just need a little attention.
12/08/2012 09:04 PMPosted by Vandriana
Well, given that the Silver Hand was disbanded

Eh, it wasn't disbanded, it was suspended. To quote Arthas himself:

Have I? Lord Uther! By my right of succession and the sovereignty of my crown, I hear by relieve you of your command and suspend your paladins from service!

Now a suspension then is just like any suspension now. Essentially you're ordered to stand down indefinitely until such time as the suspension is lifted with no authority and no benefits. Now one could say that Arthas never released them from the suspension, but in reality it's likely that the suspension was lifted at the same time that Uther managed to convince King Terenas to recall Arthas's expedition to Northrend.

Now players have come here and said that he (Tirion) doesn't have the authority but in the end clearly he does have the authority or it wouldn't have happened. It really is common sense when you think about it. In order for him to merge the Silver Hand and the Argent Dawn into the Argent Crusade he would need to have authority over both organizations. People can say that he has no right until they are blue in the face but what it boils down to in the end is that he did have the right, it's just that some people disagree with that, and of course their welcome to, but that doesn't make it any less accurate.


Actually in the chronicle of Morgan Ladimore it very explicitly states that the order was disbanded.

Arthas may have "suspended" the Order of the Silver Hand, but he and the Scourge then went onto basically killing each and every one of them. Suspended through authority, disbanded through force. In the end, all the bastions of that Order were cast down, and there weren't enough actual members of the Order to support it. Those that survived were either forced to flee Lordaeron altogether, go into hiding, or head up organizations other than the Silver Hand.

As a unified and organized brotherhood, however, the original order ceased to exist. Later knights may have tried to rebuild it, but the original Knights of the Silver Hand, minus a scant handful of examples like Tirion, are dead and gone.
12/09/2012 03:39 AMPosted by Dryker

Eh, it wasn't disbanded, it was suspended. To quote Arthas himself:


Now a suspension then is just like any suspension now. Essentially you're ordered to stand down indefinitely until such time as the suspension is lifted with no authority and no benefits. Now one could say that Arthas never released them from the suspension, but in reality it's likely that the suspension was lifted at the same time that Uther managed to convince King Terenas to recall Arthas's expedition to Northrend.

Now players have come here and said that he (Tirion) doesn't have the authority but in the end clearly he does have the authority or it wouldn't have happened. It really is common sense when you think about it. In order for him to merge the Silver Hand and the Argent Dawn into the Argent Crusade he would need to have authority over both organizations. People can say that he has no right until they are blue in the face but what it boils down to in the end is that he did have the right, it's just that some people disagree with that, and of course their welcome to, but that doesn't make it any less accurate.


Actually in the chronicle of Morgan Ladimore it very explicitly states that the order was disbanded.

Arthas may have "suspended" the Order of the Silver Hand, but he and the Scourge then went onto basically killing each and every one of them. Suspended through authority, disbanded through force. In the end, all the bastions of that Order were cast down, and there weren't enough actual members of the Order to support it. Those that survived were either forced to flee Lordaeron altogether, go into hiding, or head up organizations other than the Silver Hand.

As a unified and organized brotherhood, however, the original order ceased to exist. Later knights may have tried to rebuild it, but the original Knights of the Silver Hand, minus a scant handful of examples like Tirion, are dead and gone.


Yet the Scourge did not disband the Silver Hand thru force, they continue to exist in both Ironforge and Stormwind (create a new Dwarf or Human paladin and you are told you're a member of the Order of the Silver Hand even now). The Scourge only destroyed the branch of the Order that was based in Lordaeron.
I do not see why this thread had to be made, but the OP has a vendetta against our guild and I wish it hadn't been.

Actually Kimchi I don't have a vendetta against your guild despite what -some- members might say. I am sure the story has been passed around in your guild chat quite a bit already, but eh that doesn't really bother me.

What bothers me is that certain members of your guild (not all of them) are very aggressive in their responses to anyone who claims that Tirion is the leader of the Silver Hand. There isn't any proof either way, no lore that says he is or he isn't (clarification: By this I mean no solid answer. There are snippets such as his sporting of the title of Highlord of the Silver Hand at Light's Hope and the fact that he can merge both factions together) which means that people can have their own opinions and RP their characters according to those opinions, unless they happen to post that opinion on the MG forums in which case they get swarmed by your guild with at least two members being aggressively vocal telling then that 'their wrong'. The reason why I am here, is to get an answer to this question once and for all so I can either knock those aggressive members down a peg -or- admit that I myself am wrong and let the matter rest permanently.
I don't see how you think this thread will change anything. Again, you will get conjecture. That is the best there is.

Perhaps, honestly as someone else pointed out earlier I am still hoping that a C.Dev will jump in here and throw their weight behind the issue one way or another. It's good to have a spirited debate and see multiple opinions without it devolving into insults though.

Regardless I have nothing against BoL or any of your members. Minor annoyances yes (and I'm not the only one XD), but certainly nothing that would require a forum vendetta. Hell I've agreed with your points more than once before, if I hated your guild I wouldn't even be close to agreeing with you on any points :P I would be all *brooding hate* and that's not me.
Out of curiosity, what is BoL's stance on the Silver Hand and it's status?

As far as the whether human and dwarf paladins are still knights of the silver hand, a Cdev official word would be appreciated.
They have their own 'in house' version of the Silver Hand, with their own Highlord and unique code which they follow.
Honestly, from what little information we have, I understand that there are/were two different Orders of the Silver Hand.

One was Tirion's, a new order that he created after the quest "In dreams". He states that he takes his place as "Highlord of the new Order of the Silver Hand", which seems to indicate that the old one was decimated and made defunct. It was probably composed of paladins from all Light-worshiping races who heeded his call, Scarlet Crusaders who defected, Argent Dawn paladins, and so on. We never actually see his "Knights of the Silver Hand", so maybe he was just a crazy old cook, or his Knights were limited in number. This seems to be a new order that is somewhat different than the Original Order's goals and traditions (i.e not sworn to the Alliance, allows entrance to other races, etc).

And then there are the Paladins of Stormwind and Ironforge (Players and NPCs) who Identify themselves as Knights of the Silver Hand. Its the formal title they hold and for all intents and purposes, the order in the south was never affected by Arthas' decree or slaughter. From what I have read, the Silver Hand has always been active in Stormwind after the second war, with both the Paladins serving there, the Church of Light being a place where paladins are inducted into the Order (i.e Arthas), and one of the Original paladins having originated from there (Gavinrad), so I see no reason why there wouldnt still be a Silver Hand presence in stormwind. Furthermore, The paladin introduction quests induct the player paladins into the order and Dwarf paladins seem to identify themselves as Knights of the Silver Hand. Even the human warrior introduction quest seems to acknowledge the Order as still being active.

So, it'd seem to me that there is an Order of the Silver Hand in Stormwind, which is the remnant of the original order that follows the original ideals and traditions, and then there is Tirion's order, which follows a different (yet similar) set of ideals and has different ideals, and has now been merged with the Argent Dawn to form the Argent Crusade.

Also, back in the Blizzcon when WotLK was announced, the Argent Dawn faction was originally supposed to be the Order of the Silver Hand. I suspect this was changed to Argent Crusade so as to not completely rob Alliance paladins (well, Humans and Dwarves) of their Iconic paladin order.


However, none of this is official, and its all conjecture until blizzard answers the question as to whether there still exists a faction/organization/chapter of the Order of the Silver Hand that is still exclusively Alliance aligned, or Tirion had the Authority to completely merge the entire order with the Argent Dawn to form the Argent Crusade and the order is now completely defunct, with Alliance Human and Dwarf paladins belonging to either no specific order or a new one. It'd be nice to have an official answer from the Cdevs on this matter.

It'd also be nice to see the paladin trainers in Stormwind and Ironforge wearing the Silver Hand tabards (i.e Tabard of the Lightbringer texture) and there being a few Silver Hand banners in the Cathedral of Light and Halls of Mystery.
Well one thing to remember, specifically regarding the quest text for starting human and dwarf paladins is that it hasn't changed since vanilla, in fact, none of the starting quests for the classes have. You still get your class specific note and told to meet your trainer and you're given the exact same speech now that you got back when the game launched in '04.

It's unfortunate when you think about it, and sadly it doesn't reflect any changes story wise that were implemented during WotLK.
The paladin trainers in Stormwind and Ironforge aren't flagged as members of the Argent Crusade. They still have the Alliance symbol on their portraits and they still react with hostility to Horde characters.

That means they're still members of the Alliance's Silver Hand, not members of the Argent Crusade... so there's no need to change their starting quest text.
The paladin trainers in Stormwind and Ironforge aren't flagged as members of the Argent Crusade. They still have the Alliance symbol on their portraits and they still react with hostility to Horde characters.

That means they're still members of the Alliance's Silver Hand, not members of the Argent Crusade... so there's no need to change their starting quest text.

Not exactly a strong point of argument there. Remember that the developers tend to forget the small details (such as Falstad Wildhammer being alive) so it's entirely possible that they simply forgot to update the NPCs when they changed the city in Cataclysm. Furthermore, giving the horde neutral ground in Stormwind/Ironforge where no guards could attack them wouldn't be a good thing mechanics wise (the paladin trainers in both cities after all are in their own rooms). Kill NPCs, retreat to the safe room, Kill NPCs... rinse and repeat. You'd have an endless amount of grief if they allowed that and both Cathedrals would become world PvP hotspots, which I doubt is something Blizzard wants.
Well one thing to remember, specifically regarding the quest text for starting human and dwarf paladins is that it hasn't changed since vanilla, in fact, none of the starting quests for the classes have. You still get your class specific note and told to meet your trainer and you're given the exact same speech now that you got back when the game launched in '04.

It's unfortunate when you think about it, and sadly it doesn't reflect any changes story wise that were implemented during WotLK.


But neither was the quest text in regards to the Silver Hand changed in Cataclysm, when a good many of the starting area quests were changed/new ones added. In fact, the class introduction quest lines, specifically the "Consecrated letter" one for paladins, have all been changed to reflect that Blackrock orcs invaded the valley... yet nothing has been changed regarding the Silver Hand quest text.

Also, the lvl 20 and 50 paladin reward items have the suffix "Of the Order". While minor, it still indicates that some form of order still exists.

Again, there is evidence supporting both points of view, but for the most part there is not enough evidence to say that Tirion leads the Silver Hand that exists within the Alliance, if it exists at all. All that can be said for Certain is that he is the Highlord of the Argent Crusade, and that he formed a (in his words) new order of the Silver Hand.
Well one thing to remember, specifically regarding the quest text for starting human and dwarf paladins is that it hasn't changed since vanilla, in fact, none of the starting quests for the classes have. You still get your class specific note and told to meet your trainer and you're given the exact same speech now that you got back when the game launched in '04.

It's unfortunate when you think about it, and sadly it doesn't reflect any changes story wise that were implemented during WotLK.


But neither was the quest text in regards to the Silver Hand changed in Cataclysm, when a good many of the starting area quests were changed/new ones added. In fact, the class introduction quest lines, specifically the "Consecrated letter" one for paladins, have all been changed to reflect that Blackrock orcs invaded the valley... yet nothing has been changed regarding the Silver Hand quest text.

Also, the lvl 20 and 50 paladin reward items have the suffix "Of the Order". While minor, it still indicates that some form of order still exists.

Again, there is evidence supporting both points of view, but for the most part there is not enough evidence to say that Tirion leads the Silver Hand that exists within the Alliance, if it exists at all. All that can be said for Certain is that he is the Highlord of the Argent Crusade, and that he formed a (in his words) new order of the Silver Hand.

Good point, I just looked that up actually. The letters themselves have not been changed, but the initial quest text has leading up to handing the letter in. As for the weapon and helm though, it's simply says 'order' it's not entirely specific on which order. True they could have been updated to 'of the Crusade' but eh...

I still think an official answer would be better and definitely some fleshing out of the Order, it's current purpose and it's future in patches and expansions later down the line.
Good point, I just looked that up actually. The letters themselves have not been changed, but the initial quest text has leading up to handing the letter in. As for the weapon and helm though, it's simply says 'order' it's not entirely specific on which order. True they could have been updated to 'of the Crusade' but eh...

I still think an official answer would be better and definitely some fleshing out of the Order, it's current purpose and it's future in patches and expansions later down the line.


I would love it if Blizzard was to give us an answer on whether the Silver Hand is still an Alliance organization or is now Defunct with Tirion and the Argent Crusade around.

But for now, All we can do is assume that the Silver Hand is still an Active Alliance-aligned organization that is separate (yet friendly) to the Argent Crusade.

Personally, I want either Turalyon or Arator (arator preferably because there is less chance he'll become a Johnny Neutral) to come back and take control of the ALLIANCE Silver Hand. The order needs a leader so it actually has some semblance of definition. The Other Paladin orders are defined without confusion as to their status because they actually have an official and visible leader. Hell, the entire Church of Light needs to have a lore update now that Benedictus is dead and gone.
12/09/2012 11:17 PMPosted by Arieus
Personally, I want either Turalyon or Arator (arator preferably because there is less chance he'll become a Johnny Neutral) to come back and take control of the ALLIANCE Silver Hand. The order needs a leader so it actually has some semblance of definition. The Other Paladin orders are defined without confusion as to their status because they actually have an official and visible leader. Hell, the entire Church of Light needs to have a lore update now that Benedictus is dead and gone.

I doubt Turalyon will become a neutral NPC unless he's gone through mind boggling personal changes since the destruction of Draenor. Turalyon was after all fiercely loyal to Lothar and he saw the man get cut down by Doomhammer and it's the orcs fault that he's stuck wherever he current is at the moment. In fact the only 'hero' of that campaign that is neutral is Khadgar, but that's likely got something to do with the Naaru more than his own personal opinions.

Not to mention Turalyon's wife Alleria will likely be very much pro-alliance much like her sister Vareesa. If Turalyon tried to become 'johnny neutral' as you called it, she'd probably slap him back into Draenor... or all the way to Argus, despite the fact that her sister leads the Forsaken.

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