Old Content is just like Printing money

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I don't want them to update aold content too much. I like that they are locked in time, so to speak. Going back for the experience is still possible and fun.

This past summer they did a big push to get players to visit old raids for the heck of it and for transmog gear. They did a regular series talking about the old raids on the website. Also, the new battle pets have been an easy addition to entice people to go back and check them out.
Yeah heaven forbid it actually be good content. Ever stop to think about that one? Maybe we liked it because it WAS good and a lot better than that garbage that was Dragon Soul. Maybe we liked earning our epics without the cry baby player base demanding freebies.

Why do people always want to post that "It's nostalgia, which means it could never actually be good." garbage?


Have you never experienced nostalgia? Have you never reminsced about the good old days of watching Thundercats, only to sit through, watch a whole episode and figure out "Huh, that isn't as good as I remember it?"

Even for stuff that legitimately was good back in the day, that's not somewhere where most can perpetually live. Yeah,it would be great to run through the likes of Kara again, but after a few times most people would remember "Oh yeah, I ran through this for a whole raiding tier back in BC. Why am I doing this again, when I could be doing something I haven't experienced before?"
No, leave old content as it is right now. I haven't gotten my Onyxia mount yet, and god forbid Blizzard turns her into a level 90 raid boss!

It was already disappointing enough that Blizzard made ZA and ZG level 85 heroics because now they are pretty much impossible to solo as a rogue and I probably won't be able to solo farm the mounts until I'm level 95 or even level 100! :(

But I'm not saying don't revamp old dungeons from now on! Far from it! Go ahead and revamp dungeons that don't drop mounts! Like if Blizzard ever made Stratholme a level 90 or 95 heroic dungeon, I think thousands of players out there are gonna flame these forums in anger because I actually still know some people who farm Stratholme for the Baron Mount because after 8 years they have YET to ever see it drop... poor them. It would be an incredibly huge slap in the face if Blizzard made Stratholme non-soloable anymore!
Can you imagine if Apple decided to completely change the Iphone every release? Sure a few things are changed on each version but the core design, style, and functionality are all there...


You were doing so well until you decided to bring up apple trash...

I always thought dungeon difficulty should scale to the party. The higher the levels of the people, the harder the mobs. Something similar to how D3 gets more difficult as more people join the game...
12/07/2012 06:06 AMPosted by Llyss
The problem is most people loved the old things for pure nostalgia. Actually going back to it would not be the same as experiencing it the first time and it would cause a lot of let down.


I love seeing this failure logic from players. Just because we remember it to be good content.. Yeah heaven forbid it actually be good content. Ever stop to think about that one? Maybe we liked it because it WAS good and a lot better than that garbage that was Dragon Soul. Maybe we liked earning our epics without the cry baby player base demanding freebies.

Why do people always want to post that "It's nostalgia, which means it could never actually be good." garbage?


Go ahead and explain to me, a veteran of that era, on how you even think for a moment the raid can be tuned to keep that "nostalgic feel" (IE: no mechanic changes) and still be NEARLY as hard of a raid fight. People die to mechanics today (or failure to execute them properly rather). What boss in Kara had current raid boss difficulty mechanics?

Lets see.

Attune - DPS the horse till boss spawns, other tank (or same tank) grabs boss. DPS finish killing horse till he mounts up then you burn boss. Healers dispel as needed.
Moroes - CC or kill the adds and then switch to moroes. Burn him down before his bleed kills off people
Maiden - Healers/range stay outside her pulsing consecration since it silences. Healers dispel holy fire. God help you if you were a prot pally tank. L2Time attacks with the silence pulses ;)
Opera - If Romeo and Juliet, split DPS and bring them down together. Dispel his poison. If Big Bad Wolf, kite around the edge of the room if you get turned into Little Red Riding Hood. If Wizard of Oz (probably the hardest fight in Kara if it was revamped), have a tank kite tinman, use fire spells on the scarecrow, fear the lion, and kill dorothy and her mutt. DPS down tinman and have the tank pickup the lion for the raid (minus the fire spamming player who is soloing the scarecrow) to kill. Once they are all dead, burn the witch while avoiding her tornadoes. This fight is about the only one in Kara that could make a realistic raid fight
Curator - Kill his adds, then him. Save DPS CD's for when he does evocation.
Moroes (might be worthy of a raid boss). Stay IN the fire (how often does one hear that?), interrupt him as you can. Run to the walls before he gets the arcane explosion off. Kill/CC adds if he spawns them.
Illhoof (think that was his name) - DPS the chains holding the sacrificed person, kill his giant imp, pop CD's and melt him.
Netherspite - Tank in red beam (2-3 secs then out for 1-2 secs). Non-mana user camp the green beam. DPS juggle the blue beam. When he phases, dodge his crap. When he rephases, other tank takes red beam, another non mana user does green (or original tank), other DPS take blue beam.
Chess - Level 1's could do this fight since its not related to you gear
Prince - Kite away from dropped infernals. Range/heals stay at max distance. Melee run to range when they drop to 1HP.
Nightbane or whatever that dead dragon is - keep his tail faced away from the raid, range and melee on opposite sides and move when he drops fire. Keep a fear ward on the tank (horray a fight that almost made warrior mandatory) or enjoy the reposition game. When he flies up, stack and kill adds. Rinse and repeat 3 times.

Now maybe I missed a boss, but all of that seems about on par as 5 man fights, as far as mechanics go. So either Blizzard has to add mechanics to complicate or they have to make them stupidly hard hitting (the old BC model of difficulty which is in direct opposition to the Wrath+ model). Adding mechanics may as well make them new fights. I can guarantee you, if I fought level 90 versions of any of those bosses (and I can do the same for most any boss in BC), I wouldn't feel any sense of pride or nostalgia. In fact, they'd be considered ROFLPWN fights by today's standards and would embarrass old school raiders who stomp them and shatter the nostalgia they were ever challenged by them (when many forget the challenge was due to how much gear they required to down).
12/07/2012 06:48 AMPosted by Glowfinger
Can you imagine if Apple decided to completely change the Iphone every release? Sure a few things are changed on each version but the core design, style, and functionality are all there...


You were doing so well until you decided to bring up apple trash...

I always thought dungeon difficulty should scale to the party. The higher the levels of the people, the harder the mobs. Something similar to how D3 gets more difficult as more people join the game...


You mean the Elder Scrolls/Fallout tuning of mobs? It has it's advantages and disadvantages.
Back away from Karazhan. Now.
This game is in desperate need of new content. Now let me be clear, new content is not defined as old content with a new skin OR even old content with a new difficulty level. The constant regurgitation of old content is not new content. Yet blizz passes it off as such because most of the player base is now people who saw the MoP commercial and decided to pick the game up and have no prior experience as to what it was like before. Someone is goign to troll this post with something along the lines of "No nuh uh! There's a whole new expac of new content called MoP noob!" As far as "new" 5 man MoP dungeons go, half of them are redo's of old 5 mans, and as for MoP raids they are just reskins of old content. Move here, attack this, attack boss, rinse and repeat.
12/07/2012 07:45 AMPosted by Odidodie
As far as "new" 5 man MoP dungeons go, half of them are redo's of old 5 mans, and as for MoP raids they are just reskins of old content. Move here, attack this, attack boss, rinse and repeat.


I can see your point about 5 mans, but the raids just being reskins of old content because we're still moving and attacking things? By that logic, just about every game is a reskin of everything else. Mass Effect is a reskin of Doom because we're moving around and attacking stuff with guns. Skyrim is a reskin of Zelda because we just move around and attack stuff with swords.
I vote Naxxrammas Level 90!
I often wondered why blizzard doesn't take advantage of the content people loved. Sure, new content and raids are fun but how much time would it really take to upgrade Kara to current gear levels.

I mean why in gods name wouldn't you do things like this, the Ony upgrade was great but even now its outdated by two expansions. The scarlet monastery was good but you didn't even have to redesign the dungeon, just leave them as they were.

Can you imagine if Apple decided to completely change the Iphone every release? Sure a few things are changed on each version but the core design, style, and functionality are all there and people still flock to get the latest version. Why is that, its because they have a good thing going.


I'm going to sound a bit like a broken record, so forgive me, but when we are working on updates to the game, we're looking at what works well for the ongoing development of it. Sometimes that means taking a look at previous content and updating, and sometimes it means leaving it as it is. Overall though, it's about where we want to take things next, what fits into the larger scheme of development, what can we devote resources to comfortably and still deliver the best possible experience we can in a reasonably solid time frame.

There are a lot of things that people keep bringing up that they'd like to see again, or revisit in a new and fresh way. We're not unaware of this. But, at the same time, we have to keep asking ourselves, "Does it make sense and if it does make sense, does it make sense right now?" In contrast, there are those detractors who are often upset when we do go back and refresh content. In some cases it's because they're new enough that they haven't seen it yet, in others it's because they feel we should leave well enough alone, and to others yet who feel that it's a development "cop out" and a mere recycling effort. That's not to say that these things aren't possibilities "someday", but what seems simple to you may not be quite so simple as all that.

An example of updating things on a very large scale, is Cataclysm. There was so much work done from the starting quests to the environments to the very flight paths, but to those who didn't go through the refreshed content, it was a "waste" of time. We also then had what many felt was far too little at the upper end of content for them. So, despite best efforts to refresh a significant amount of content, not everyone was pleased with it once the immediate blush was off the rose. What we must fight against is time, nostalgia, "What do I get to do/take part in?", or even "where's my challenge?" So, no, it's not as easy as that. In a perfect world, maybe it would be.
i really hope to see kara come back, even as an ultra epic 5 man. everyone loves Kara so much.
Rehashed content does not translate to good content every time.

Killing Ony 3 times was funny, not epic.
12/07/2012 08:02 AMPosted by Absolutezéro
i really hope to see kara come back, even as an ultra epic 5 man. everyone loves Kara so much.


Yes! I love Kara! <3
I often wondered why blizzard doesn't take advantage of the content people loved. Sure, new content and raids are fun but how much time would it really take to upgrade Kara to current gear levels.

I mean why in gods name wouldn't you do things like this, the Ony upgrade was great but even now its outdated by two expansions. The scarlet monastery was good but you didn't even have to redesign the dungeon, just leave them as they were.

Can you imagine if Apple decided to completely change the Iphone every release? Sure a few things are changed on each version but the core design, style, and functionality are all there and people still flock to get the latest version. Why is that, its because they have a good thing going.

No.

I want new raids, new challenges.

Speak for yourself.
12/07/2012 07:59 AMPosted by Nethaera
what can we devote resources to comfortably and still deliver the best possible experience we can in a reasonably solid time frame.


Unfortunately the Balance Druid does not fall into this category.
12/07/2012 08:06 AMPosted by Layuth
what can we devote resources to comfortably and still deliver the best possible experience we can in a reasonably solid time frame.


Unfortunately the Balance Druid does not fall into this category.


May I suggest, with all due respect, that you post in a completely different thread if you have constructive feedback on Balance Druids? This thread is about content updates and not about class design. Thanks!

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