DK survivability in PvP

Death Knight
So, we all know it isn't where it should be. We are all ranting about how they need to buff IBF, and so on and so forth. Recently on MMO-champ, someone asked about how blues think about DK survivability, and they replied with "If you can get a DK to blow all def cooldowns, then they're easier to kill, but you still have Blood Presence." OK, im sorry... but that is just... words don't describe how much that irritates me... How does going into Blood Presence solve ANYTHING? 10% damage reduction? but the cost of my move has gone up... we need something to force people off of us, not just take half a second longer to die. Please blizzard. PLEASE help us!
It's a tweet from quite a while ago. I'm not sure why they're putting it up like it's new.

Maybe because he hasn't said anything about DKs more recently?
Blood pres + full resil gemming. Dks are HARD to kill in blood with a half decent sham/pally. You can still do quite a bit of burst dmg in blood. Get killing machine to proc and sit on runes. Outbreak. Burst with partner. Profit.
Oh, i didn't know it wasn't new. I really only check mmo for new info. I know that going into blood pres could be good, but they shouldn't use that as an excuse not to fix survivability. If I'm supposed to be in frost presence, i shouldn't have to go into blood presence to survive.
blood presence increases your armor in addition to the 10% reduction. for me, my armor goes from stopping 40% of physical damage to stopping 50%.
12/10/2012 09:16 AMPosted by Xarreda
blood presence increases your armor in addition to the 10% reduction. for me, my armor goes from stopping 40% of physical damage to stopping 50%.


Good for you, now tell us how that helps frost/UH, im sure living half a second longer while mitigating our dps must count for something..
12/10/2012 05:53 AMPosted by Roakun
Oh, i didn't know it wasn't new. I really only check mmo for new info. I know that going into blood pres could be good, but they shouldn't use that as an excuse not to fix survivability. If I'm supposed to be in frost presence, i shouldn't have to go into blood presence to survive.


It's called Stance dancing.. Warrior's and druids have been doing it for years, and now it's our turn.. Suck it up, bind your presences to keys and stance dance to blood when getting focused, and unholy when you need to close distance and frost when you need to burst.. Don't !@#$% because you actually have to do something to stay alive and aren't handed your survivability on a silver platter.

*Edit* Healing yourself with abilities that heal for a percentage works wonders while in blood presence. I'm looking at the lovely Death pact that DK's have. Healing for 50% of your health helps when you have more health than you normally do. Even if you switch presences JUST for that purpose, you still gained more health than you otherwise would have. Warlock health stones work the same way, and you can always use your "victory rush" death strike after killing a target in blood presence. You gain the buff from the glyph while in unholy or frost, but you can always switch to blood and the buff stays on you, and you can get a larger heal.

Survivability is fine if you know what you're doing. Blizz is right.. You have blood presence.. Use it.
12/11/2012 11:44 AMPosted by Kahna
It's called Stance dancing.. Warrior's and druids have been doing it for years, and now it's our turn.. Suck it up, bind your presences to keys and stance dance to blood when getting focused, and unholy when you need to close distance and frost when you need to burst.. Don't !@#$% because you actually have to do something to stay alive and aren't handed your survivability on a silver platter.


Dude, don't be a jerk. We realize that we need to stance dance now, we've just never had to do it before, and when people are obviously gonna complain when something gets more complicated. Plus, it sucks we lose all our runic power when we switch presences, but again, we'll get used to is, so show a little understanding.

Honestly, I don't think we need as many survivability changes as people are crying out for. We don't need anything major or new, we just need some minor adjustments to the tools we've already got. And you can't deny that PvP right now is RADICALLY unbalanced. Most of our problems come from Warriors, Frost Mages, and even Warlocks to a degree being way too good. Compared to Death Knights (and a lot of other classes/specs for that matter) their toolbox to too big and too good, and the state they're currently in makes other classes (except paladins) not worth playing.
Oh, i didn't know it wasn't new. I really only check mmo for new info. I know that going into blood pres could be good, but they shouldn't use that as an excuse not to fix survivability. If I'm supposed to be in frost presence, i shouldn't have to go into blood presence to survive.


It's called Stance dancing.. Warrior's and druids have been doing it for years, and now it's our turn.. Suck it up, bind your presences to keys and stance dance to blood when getting focused, and unholy when you need to close distance and frost when you need to burst.. Don't !@#$% because you actually have to do something to stay alive and aren't handed your survivability on a silver platter.

*Edit* Healing yourself with abilities that heal for a percentage works wonders while in blood presence. I'm looking at the lovely Death pact that DK's have. Healing for 50% of your health helps when you have more health than you normally do. Even if you switch presences JUST for that purpose, you still gained more health than you otherwise would have. Warlock health stones work the same way, and you can always use your "victory rush" death strike after killing a target in blood presence. You gain the buff from the glyph while in unholy or frost, but you can always switch to blood and the buff stays on you, and you can get a larger heal.

Survivability is fine if you know what you're doing. Blizz is right.. You have blood presence.. Use it.
spoken like someone that has never done a single arena as a dk.

blood presence doesnt fix the fact that we are the train target of choice for any team we are in and having to rely on the 2 most broken healing specs in arenas in order to survive isnt a good thing.

the fact of the matter is dks have nothing that reliably prevents them from being tunneled. self healing every 2 min for 50% of our health is trivial if you continue to take the hits that forced you to use the heal to begin with. not to mention that being the focus target of any competant team prevents us from generating resources in order to use half of our cds.
Oh, i didn't know it wasn't new. I really only check mmo for new info. I know that going into blood pres could be good, but they shouldn't use that as an excuse not to fix survivability. If I'm supposed to be in frost presence, i shouldn't have to go into blood presence to survive.


It's called Stance dancing.. Warrior's and druids have been doing it for years, and now it's our turn.. Suck it up, bind your presences to keys and stance dance to blood when getting focused, and unholy when you need to close distance and frost when you need to burst.. Don't !@#$% because you actually have to do something to stay alive and aren't handed your survivability on a silver platter.

*Edit* Healing yourself with abilities that heal for a percentage works wonders while in blood presence. I'm looking at the lovely Death pact that DK's have. Healing for 50% of your health helps when you have more health than you normally do. Even if you switch presences JUST for that purpose, you still gained more health than you otherwise would have. Warlock health stones work the same way, and you can always use your "victory rush" death strike after killing a target in blood presence. You gain the buff from the glyph while in unholy or frost, but you can always switch to blood and the buff stays on you, and you can get a larger heal.

Survivability is fine if you know what you're doing. Blizz is right.. You have blood presence.. Use it.


there is a reason DKs are always the focus target in 3s. popping in blood presence is one of the very few limited survival tools DK have. that's the point. few and limited survival tools. mentioning the fact we can go into blood presence doesn't somehow make our survivability fine. DKs still have one of, if not the worst, defensive ability "toolbelt" of any class in arena
I disagree with the comment about us not needing to stance dance before or that we shouldn't need to do it now. Switching to blood presence during heavy focus+healer cc was always important.

Now, however, it has become too needed. They have gotten rid of many of our survivability abilities and strengths over different patches. Blood presence is not a replacement for what we have lost. Especially when other classes have gained so much this xpac.

We are lacking in defensive tools. We do what we can now, and hope for love from the patches
There is a glyph that help you keep some of your presence when you switch presences. Would make "dancing" easier right?
That is correct; the "Shifting Presence" glyph should allow you to keep 70% of your runic power after a presence switch-over.

The problem appears to be in the CD's for our survival/defensive abilities as they do not recycle enough to make much of a difference when compared to other classes that can spam a CC or healing ability much more effectively.

We have the tools, but they all are pretty much a one-and-done deal, even if you are considering the Presence-Shifting mechanic for greater survivability.
yeah... u right, dks r bad and blizzard doesn't respect them
12/10/2012 10:29 AMPosted by Tikomonakama
Good for you, now tell us how that helps frost/UH, im sure living half a second longer while mitigating our dps must count for something..

Do what Rythmx said, gem Resil and switch to blood pres. I was able to run the entire field in Warsong with 5 dps pounding on me in blood pres and a druid keeping HoTs up.
You gotta be joking. I'm not saying DKS don't have their issues, but I throw everything I got at DKs and I cannot put a dent into them. =*( You often see 3 or 4 people against a DK and it takes forever to kill them.
12/13/2012 01:36 AMPosted by Pokonta
You gotta be joking. I'm not saying DKS don't have their issues, but I throw everything I got at DKs and I cannot put a dent into them. =*( You often see 3 or 4 people against a DK and it takes forever to kill them.


Yeah youre talking about blood DKs, not Frost. Blood is a tanking spec.
One of the major problems with "stance dancing" as a deathknight is the negative return it has on us. Yes, blood presence increases health, armor, and reduces damage taken by 10%, but it gimps us on our damage output in regard to RP usage and conservation.

Additionally, most of what blood presence protects us from is melee. The only padding it gives us towards casters is the 10% damage reduction. That's nothing. And yeah, there's ams, but only for the next 6 seconds.

Note: we are currently playing world of castercraft where wizard comps are dominating.

You mean to tell me that chaos bolt hit 144k instead of 160k?! AMAZING.


To those saying "run full resil and use blood presence," that wasn't how the class was intended to work. If that's the only way to be viable at current, there needs to be something changed. The playstyle wasn't supposed to be, swap majority of damage output for survivability. IF that was the intent they should have buffed blood's damage by a small amount and said, "Use that if you want to pvp."

I don't want to compare to other classes because that cries for homogenization, and honestly I'd rather classes be more unique as they used to be. But for arguments sake we'll look at other "stance dancers."

- Shifting bear does have a damage decrease, but it also open the opportunity for bear stun and removal of roots/slows resulting in increased mobility.
- Defensive stance has 15% more damage reduction, and coupled with Second wind is far more effective than blood presence.

Deathknights honestly need a slight survival revamp in regards to changing IBF and possibly AMS, or introducing something entirely new that makes deathknights a tad more competitive in pvp.
So let me get this straight, you want more defense with your crazy amount of damage right?
A slight buff to our defensive cd's is not out of order. Or just buff blood presence a bit more.

Dk is a focus target for a reason. Near 100% uptime on the dk and the defensive cd's are all on a 2 minute cd so once they are blown you have a long !@# time to bust 2-3 more burst switches on the dk.

10% reduction helps but casters will still handily destroy you in blood presence after they bust a 10+ second CC chain on your healer. I think our defensive cd's can just be on cooldown for too long in the current environment.

When most teams you face seem to have 10+ seconds of instant cast unavoidable CC chains, a dk has to live without his defensive cd's quite often.

Could also shorten cd on strangulate so we could use it defensively more often.

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