Blizzard says they want normals hard.

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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12/11/2012 02:13 PMPosted by Sarosha


I don't.

I think a 12 boss tier can last for 6-8 months, assuming the tier is well-designed (t14 is, t11 was).

We had Ulduar for about 6, I think, but the life of Ulduar could easily have gone on a few months more. This tier is easily good enough to last 6 or 7.


Thats the wrong question.

Its not is the tier good enough to last 6-8 months.

Its is the LFR good enough to last 6-8 months?


If you read anything anyone posted, you'd already know that everyones response is you're asking the wrong question. LFR IS good enough for those players who don't want to do what the vast majority of raiders do, and that's set up a form of organized raiding which even you have quoted several times you do not do.

That is what LFR is for, it's to give people content in which otherwise they would not have content. Normal and Heroic modes are for organized groups, heroic being for the more "cutting" edge organized groups.

There's been about 50 people telling you you're wrong, and now even blizzard is telling you you're wrong. You're clearly fighting a losing battle which you have no chance of winning, so my advice would be instead of throwing a temper tantrum like a 5 year old threatening to quit every other thread, just quit already.
Anyone who has a gearing issue beating normal elegon is straight stupid. The content was killable in full heroic dungeon gear without some sort of strict raid comp.

The answer is not Blizzard saying "Oh, you can't kill the content after you've outgeared it? Here, Blizzard can nerf it for you...there there...it's alright. You don't have to learn your class or figure out how to deal with mechanics to get the lootz..."


Ghatok Id like you to read this point..

I might have said some dumb or inconsiderate things, but this takes the cake, he is basically saying that you, me and every other raider that is stuck on elegon is stupid....

Wow...


What else is there to it? Yeah, if you only raid two hours a night, and two nights a week you're not going to be progressing very fast, but you SHOULD be able to kill it eventually as everything should be one shot up to him at some point in time. People have been capable of killing it since heroic dungeon gear. If you're running into the boss and just bashing your head against it week after week what else is there other than your raid isn't competent?

I can see how what I said was offensive, but it also has a point, and other than extreme raid time constraints there's no reason you should not stuck on Elegon. Us people that down him with less gear aren't super amazing brainiac players. You know what gets top kills/fast progression? Not DPS. It's awareness and performing the mechanics to the letter because any mistake, any death can mean a wipe. That's the big thing that top players have over the LFR/normal casuals (besides more time).

12/11/2012 01:47 PMPosted by Sadiemay
He has anger management issues, pay him no mind, he does it everywhere.


ME ANGRY

ME RAGE

ME SMASH
12/11/2012 02:57 PMPosted by Postonforums
ive very rarely asked for nerfs this expansion, I have complained about difficulty and have some of the decisions they mad were stupid.


nonononono

You have asked for nerfs every single post you have made, that's why everytime I quoted you, FROM LFR, to NORMAL posts, I had to say "NERFNERFNERFNERF" in your quotes.


you usually add them in there.

Even in some of the posts where I say bodly this doesnt need a nerf.
12/11/2012 02:59 PMPosted by Sarosha
Is people playing LFR for 3-4 months out of every 6-7 allright, I dont know... Its allright for me. I dont know if thats allright for blizzard.


We've said this from the start, LFR isn't healthy for the game, it stops people from trying, it's amazing how many people just want purple pixels, not to actually play the game.


Ghatok Id like you to read this point..

I might have said some dumb or inconsiderate things, but this takes the cake, he is basically saying that you, me and every other raider that is stuck on elegon is stupid....

Wow...


What else is there to it? Yeah, if you only raid two hours a night, and two nights a week you're not going to be progressing very fast, but you SHOULD be able to kill it eventually as everything should be one shot up to him at some point in time. People have been capable of killing it since heroic dungeon gear. If you're running into the boss and just bashing your head against it week after week what else is there other than your raid isn't competent?

I can see how what I said was offensive, but it also has a point, and other than extreme raid time constraints there's no reason you should not stuck on Elegon. Us people that down him with less gear aren't super amazing brainiac players. You know what gets top kills/fast progression? Not DPS. It's awareness and performing the mechanics to the letter because any mistake, any death can mean a wipe. That's the big thing that top players have over the LFR/normal casuals (besides more time).

12/11/2012 01:47 PMPosted by Sadiemay
He has anger management issues, pay him no mind, he does it everywhere.


ME ANGRY

ME RAGE

ME SMASH


The other biggie is attempts.

Most normal mode raids Ive been in, if something doesnt go down in 15-20 attempts, they usually give up. Sometimes a little more sometimes a little less.

I know thats a small number to heroic mode raiders, but from what I seen its about the standard in normal mode raiding guilds.

we are about 20 attempts in and making little progress, it does not bode well.
See your actually agreeing with me to some extent.

Is people playing LFR for 3-4 months out of every 6-7 allright, I dont know... Its allright for me. I dont know if thats allright for blizzard.


No I'm not. My father in law and dad both quit during ds 35%, too, and it doesn't get any easier than that.

If anything, they've stayed subbed longer this time because of things like the sheer number of lfrs to do and dailies.

It has nothing to do with nerfing normals. Your argument is wrong.
12/11/2012 03:04 PMPosted by Sarosha
Most normal mode raids Ive been in, if something doesnt go down in 15-20 attempts, they usually give up. Sometimes a little more sometimes a little less.


And that's the problem with your type of raiders.

CAN'T KILL IT IN 15-20 ATTEMPTS? WELL FORGET THIS CRAP. GOD FORBID WE LOOK AT TO REASONS WHY IT'S NOT DYING. LET'S JUST WAIT FOR IT TO BE NERFED AND FARM EVERYTHING ELSE.

12/11/2012 03:04 PMPosted by Sarosha
we are about 20 attempts in and making little progress, it does not bode well.


Then start looking at reasons why. And if it's people making mistakes, which it is, then start holding them accountable. Seriously, you can do that instead of just giving up. If orbs aren't dying tell people to pay attention. If protector damage isn't happening tell people to pay attention or get replaced. You may not have an active raider waiting to get in over him, but you can recruit on off raid days because he's not stepping it up.

There is nothing wrong with healthy communication between raid members, and replacing someone because they aren't doing their job. When you can't do your job in real life you get fired. When you don't replace the workers that aren't doing their job they hold the company down until the company fires them or they go out of business. And it sounds like your raid is out of business.
See your actually agreeing with me to some extent.

Is people playing LFR for 3-4 months out of every 6-7 allright, I dont know... Its allright for me. I dont know if thats allright for blizzard.


You're assuming a correlation when people of that personality are simply people who enjoy things in short and small doses - which is where the wide range of not-LFR-things helps more than trying to get them to do even more LFR for a longer period of time.

See:
"If anything, they've stayed subbed longer this time because of things like the sheer number of lfrs to do and dailies.

It has nothing to do with nerfing normals. Your argument is wrong."
12/11/2012 03:04 PMPosted by Postonforums
Is people playing LFR for 3-4 months out of every 6-7 allright, I dont know... Its allright for me. I dont know if thats allright for blizzard.


We've said this from the start, LFR isn't healthy for the game, it stops people from trying, it's amazing how many people just want purple pixels, not to actually play the game.


You cant play both sides of LFR.... you do know that.

You cant say LFR is unhealthy for the game, and then say LFR is there for all the people who cant or wont raid.

And that LFR allows them to make Normal mode harder

So here is the situation blizzard and the players are in.

LFR is needed to fund raiding, LFR allows blizzard to show management high attendence numbers to justify the costs of raid content. There is NO WAY.... NO WAY they can every get rid of LFR, without going to 8-10 month 5 boss tiers and expansions filled with pet battles, scenarios, dailies and 5 mans(oh wait they are already doing that). I dont see them doing this.

LFR is a GREAT addition to the game, but it is NOT PERFECT..... this means you have to fix what doesnt work.

The only a few ways to make LFR and they all have problems that come with it.

They cant cut drop rate without players rebelling so the only way to cut gear influx is to cut boss count, but this has alot of issues with it, cutting down to an 8 boss tier will slow gear output but increase boredom rates.

The could try harder to move LFR players into normals (I do believe this is the technique they are using, I just think they are doing it poorly) This greatly extends the content life and keeps the LFR player around longer, but leads to the stucky boss problem(SG/Elegon/Garalon)

They can increase content patch rate, I believe they are trying this in combination with the others, but again Im not sure they can pull it off.
LFR is needed to fund raiding, LFR allows blizzard to show management high attendence numbers to justify the costs of raid content


/facepalm

That is not why they're doing LFR.

The could try harder to move LFR players into normals (I do believe this is the technique they are using, I just think they are doing it poorly)


But your belief in this is based on completely ignoring select stances while selectively choosing to believe other stances with no actual backing in anything that isn't a figment of your imagination. You're not even trying to badly mishandle numbers for this.
12/11/2012 03:17 PMPosted by Slashlove
/facepalm


The Cardigans - My Favourite Game


Thats the wrong question.

Its not is the tier good enough to last 6-8 months.

Its is the LFR good enough to last 6-8 months?


If you read anything anyone posted, you'd already know that everyones response is you're asking the wrong question. LFR IS good enough for those players who don't want to do what the vast majority of raiders do, and that's set up a form of organized raiding which even you have quoted several times you do not do.

That is what LFR is for, it's to give people content in which otherwise they would not have content. Normal and Heroic modes are for organized groups, heroic being for the more "cutting" edge organized groups.

There's been about 50 people telling you you're wrong, and now even blizzard is telling you you're wrong. You're clearly fighting a losing battle which you have no chance of winning, so my advice would be instead of throwing a temper tantrum like a 5 year old threatening to quit every other thread, just quit already.


You act like Blizzard never says one thing then does something else a month later now that they have "new information" or by saying nothing at all.

Plus the fact that many people online disagree with something does not make it wrong.

The reality is that Blizzard likely feels like they got this Tier perfect. Just like they say they have PvP balanced and PvE DPS/HPS balanced when an expansion launches.

Then they make changes to this "balanced" content as they realize it was not as balanced as they thought.

The fact is even if they do get it right if enough people start to leave they will react like they always do in an attempt to get people back or get them to stay.

So if enough people leave due to this Tier being too hard they will likely nerf it. They are trying to do this start of an expansion slightly different than the last with some added content in dailies and Pet Battles/Brawlers guild hoping this combined with a Tier 11 type difficulty in raiding is the right balance.

Only time will see if they are right.
Is people playing LFR for 3-4 months out of every 6-7 allright, I dont know... Its allright for me. I dont know if thats allright for blizzard.


Cost vs benefit.

Some of those will still play alts in lfr.
Some/most of those probably won't unsub for the 3 months they are not doing lfr.

Would blizzard like to do better? Probably, but the cost of doing so is more then the lost subs, at least in the short term.
12/11/2012 03:04 PMPosted by Sarosha
I know thats a small number to heroic mode raiders, but from what I seen its about the standard in normal mode raiding guilds.


No, sorry NO. It might be the standard in the normal guilds you have been in but I do not believe its the standard overall. My rule of thumb has always been 2 months. In a 6 month tier its not that easy to get stuck for 2 months.
12/11/2012 03:17 PMPosted by Slashlove
LFR is needed to fund raiding, LFR allows blizzard to show management high attendence numbers to justify the costs of raid content


/facepalm

That is not why they're doing LFR.

The could try harder to move LFR players into normals (I do believe this is the technique they are using, I just think they are doing it poorly)


But your belief in this is based on completely ignoring select stances while selectively choosing to believe other stances with no actual backing in anything that isn't a figment of your imagination. You're not even trying to badly mishandle numbers for this.


Actually they said in a previous interview that the cost of raid design was so high, they needed very high participation numbers to justify the expenditure and the result was LFR.

What ever else good or bad LFR did, it did do this, very very well.
12/11/2012 03:14 PMPosted by Sarosha
You cant say LFR is unhealthy for the game, and then say LFR is there for all the people who cant or wont raid.


I can say both of those, they're both true.

People who can't raid get to run it

people who like purples can go in and cry about loot, and "VOTEKICK THIS GUY BECAUSE HES A GUY" (actual quote from today)

12/11/2012 03:52 PMPosted by Sarosha
Actually they said in a previous interview that the cost of raid design was so high, they needed very high participation numbers to justify the expenditure and the result was LFR.


And they've learned from DS, not to sacrifice quality to push participation. DS was more like a fan mod than a Blizzard tier.
You cant say LFR is unhealthy for the game, and then say LFR is there for all the people who cant or wont raid.


I can say both of those, they're both true.

People who can't raid get to run it

people who like purples can go in and cry about loot, and "VOTEKICK THIS GUY BECAUSE HES A GUY" (actual quote from today)

Actually they said in a previous interview that the cost of raid design was so high, they needed very high participation numbers to justify the expenditure and the result was LFR.


And they've learned from DS, not to sacrifice quality to push participation. DS was more like a fan mod than a Blizzard tier.


Oh come on I think we could have a forum breaking thread about LFD and LFR horror and amusement stories....

Oh.... I got a few...

That doesnt mean anything other than some people play wow Drunk or high or both.

Yeah Im not saying LFR cant be better, but its not leaving and whatever has to be done as far as raiding goes, has to take into account LFR will always be there.

LFR healthy or unhealthy for the game is here to stay, I think they know where LFR difficulty should be now a bit better, they tried the too hard (Tsulong and Garalon) , the too easy SG/Sha of fear and everything in between.

I suspect 5.2's lfr will be even better balanced.

but its still got a limited shelf life
If your guild has 20 attempts in one night on a boss and 0 progress is being made, you are clearly not evaluating your strategy. You are not looking at logs or even recount to see what is going on. You're just running in there flailing in the same way over and over and then giving up because it's too hard.

And if you're saying you guys have only had 20 attempts at a boss over many lockouts, then I can only say you are not trying hard enough.

Get world of logs. Analyze the play. See activity times, spell choices, cool down usages. See buff uptimes, see why people died and when. Learn from the wipes and come back each time with a new piece of knowledge.

The LFR was not made as a stepping stone to normal raiding. It was made to allow people who don't have time for normal raiding to see the content they otherwise would not get to see. The only people for whom it acts as any sort of stepping stone to normal raiding are those of us who do normal raiding already, and then only as a means to pick up extra gear.
Actually they said in a previous interview that the cost of raid design was so high, they needed very high participation numbers to justify the expenditure and the result was LFR.

What ever else good or bad LFR did, it did do this, very very well.


No, they didn't.
Prove that they actually said this, at any point.

What they actually did, was refer to the fact that fewer than 3000 people finished Kel'Thuzad back in Classic and that it was really hard to justify putting resources into content that only 0.1% of players were seeing, which is why they shifted away from that, and that LFR extends content to even more people.

They never once tried to claim what you're trying to attribute to them.
It's been clear for a while this was their intent. The interesting question now is what the overall reaction of the players will be to it, and whether Blizzard likes that reaction. It may be that it will all be fine, or fine with minor tweaks.

It's good enough that I'm playing (and plan for now to remain playing), and Sarosha is still here (will be watching if you really do leave next month, S!). So maybe they've hit a sweet spot.

My one gripe is the upgrade scheme they've hit upon has made casual PvP too unpleasant to do as an occasional diversion. This is related to the alt-unfriendliness of the MoP design, which they've admitted is a problem (see GC tweets). That's kind of off to an angle from the question of raid tuning, though.

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