Good RNG vs Bad RNG (misses need to go)

Pet Battles
Ill start off by saying that the RNG of dodges / misses really needs to go, it has no place in a short turn-based pet battle system. To all the people who strangely somehow supports the RNG of misses / dodges, and insists that RNG is part of the game and adds flavor, I will like to point out that the nature of the design of most skills already incorporate a large amount of RNG (good RNG) in the game, and there is really no need for misses/dodges (bad RNG)

Now just how do I draw the line between good RNG vs bad RNG? Good RNG comes from well designed skills such as reflection, feign death, multiple hit abilities and abilities that do have high damage, but a moderate miss chance. Using these skills are a calculated risk in some situations, and the user is fully aware of that and chooses to use them because of certain factors in the fight. Some of such scenarios

A 1100~ hp flayer with all cooldowns up vs a low hp blighthawk
Now, as the flayer with cooldowns up, you have an upper hand, since you can juke his ghostly bite. However. he knows it as well, so do you reflect or blitz him? If you reflect and he flies or slicing winds, its a huge waste and he will bite you the next turn (kick been saved to deny UD passive). If you do not reflect and he bites you, he will 1 shot you. Its all down to mind games then, and this is sort of RNG, since if your opponent is good and unpredictable the whole fight you might as well just roll a dice and randomly choose a skill and pray. If he is a predictable and inexperienced player then you win :)

Low hp Gilnean raven vs another non UD pet at 600 hp
Your darkness effect got overriden, (that or he is an elemental), and you know you will die in the next hit. However you are still faster than him. You got the chance of using a high miss nocturnal strike and possibly kill him, saving yourself, or using alpha strike, which will hurt him (allowing your next pet to save a turn). Now depending on how bad the situation is you might choose to use the high miss move or not. If it hits, it pays off greatly and you save a relatively fast pet, but if it misses, you will get destroyed. RNG design, high risk high reward, but you are in control and perfectly aware of the consequences. If you are already winning theres no need to risk the high miss move. If you are not, you get a chance of turning the tables.

Skills like slicing wind also offer a lot of RNG due to the 1-3 hit component, and using them can be a calculated risk if you absolutely need to kill the opponent this turn. Its that or waste 3 round cd nuke that might be unnecessary and that you are sure will not come back up before you get killed.

There are many more examples like those which I am sure many seasoned pet battlers are aware of. So now Ill move on to what is absolutely bad RNG that leaves a bad taste in people's mouth and upset sound strategies and good play.

Absolutely random misses / dodges on skills that dont indicate a high miss chance
Eg. A flayer kicking an UD pet to nullify the immortal turn, only to have the kick miss and getting hit by ghostly bite for 1200 damage. Absolutely game breaking

Eg. A basilisk missing the crystal prison stun against a slower pet. So instead of getting a bonus turn, you lose a turn, which completely doesnt make sense. The WHOLE point of the design of the skill is to stun opponents so you interrupt certain abilities or gain a turn. Having it miss every now and then for completely god knows what reason can lose you games

Eg. UD pet passive proc and you ghostly bite your opponent, only to have it dodged. Thats 800 damage down the drain and its completely game breaking.

All these RNG misses and dodges need to go. They have no place in a turn base pet battle system where pets kill each other in 3-4 moves. Many skills are inherently designed with elements of RNG in place and there is really no need to further frustrate people with more RNG.
TL;DR version

RNG needs to go for a turn based game (misses and dodges).

I would go as far as to say Base crit needs to be 0% too, cause while winning from RNG is fun, its pretty lame when theres a string of it that leads to victory or loss.

Edit: Basically, remove the uncontrollable RNG. Let players decide how much RNG they want in their matches. If you want to run hard hitting moves with X% accuracy, go for it. Want to run those 1-3 hit moves? Sure. 25% crit buff? Knock yourself out.

Allowing the system to deal out RNG though simply isn't right when this is meant to be a strategic turn based thought out game. Missing or having a move dodged when its completely out of your hands isn't fun for anyone. It feels like a cheap win when its the only reason you win some matches.
The difference between being able to kill the Pandaria trainers were two misses.

I'm a fan of RNG, as I don't think everything should be a pure given, but it has no place in turn-based games.

Meteor misses around 75% of the time for me.
they need to fix the system. im okay with a 'base' dodge for pets. im not okay with even 'basic' attacks just randomly missing for no discernable reason.

and attacks like lift off and proto-strike seem to have terrible accuracy despite not saying so in the tooltip....

things like expunge 'moderate chance to miss' whats moderate? 20%? 40%? how does this compare to the 'base' chance to miss that all attacks appear to have? in a game so based around numbers, its odd that the minigame is so vague about hit, misses and dodges.

also when it comes to rng dodges... a stunned/sleeping/otherwise cced pet shouldnt be able to dodge. >_> we cant dodge while stunned in the actual game.

and what IS the chance to crit? is it based off speed? it it different per attacks? theres too much vague information in this minigame. but it is still in its infancy.
they need to fix the system. im okay with a 'base' dodge for pets. im not okay with even 'basic' attacks just randomly missing for no discernable reason.


That seriously boggles my mind. How can you be ok with base dodge, but not miss? Theres no difference if they chose to simply give every pet 5% dodge, 5% miss, or remove one or the other and change it to 10%.

RNG like that has no place in a turn based game (and one could even argue base crit has no place as well).

Edit: I agree though that accuracy should be stated on moves, so we can make an informed decision if we think an 80% hit ratio is worth it for a move that does extra damage. I'm not against giving those who want some RNG flavor (like crit buff moves or reasonably based accuracy/number of hit based moves). I don't think pets should be getting free dodge and crit though, as well as penalizing all moves with a hidden "miss" rate.
That seriously boggles my mind. How can you be ok with base dodge, but not miss? Theres no difference if they chose to simply give every pet 5% dodge, 5% miss, or remove one or the other and change it to 10%.

RNG like that has no place in a turn based game (and one could even argue base crit has no place as well).

Edit: I agree though that accuracy should be stated on moves, so we can make an informed decision if we think an 80% hit ratio is worth it for a move that does extra damage. I'm not against giving those who want some RNG flavor (like crit buff moves or reasonably based accuracy/number of hit based moves). I don't think pets should be getting free dodge and crit though, as well as penalizing all moves with a hidden "miss" rate.


I agree with everything said here.
I think RNG for hitting, missing, dodging for all moves should be removed.

A small amount of moves should have a high chance to miss - however, making the hit will gain the advantage.

I'm surprised there's no mind control ability, where you have a small chance to gain control of the enemy pet (but a high chance for the ability to miss).
misses and dodges are fine.

'unintended' misses coming from skills that are SUPPOSE TO ALWAYS HIT is not.
/signed

RNG needs to go.

Last night I spent a lot of time flipping off my monitor when a pandaren spirit dodged the move that was going to kill it.
/signed

RNG needs to go.

Last night I spent a lot of time flipping off my monitor when a pandaren spirit dodged the move that was going to kill it.


I know the feeling.
12/12/2012 09:26 AMPosted by Sventizz
Always think 'what if this doesn't hit?'


so, i should think 'what if this doesn't hit when tooltip says it WILL ALWAYS HIT?
12/12/2012 09:26 AMPosted by Sventizz
Always think 'what if this doesn't hit?'. It adds an element of strategy that forces you to think ahead of moves - and I enjoy it. Working as intended.


That's probably some of the worst garbage I've ever seen someone try to pass off as "logic".

Okay, so let's theorycraft: I'm about to fire off a move which is going to do tons of damage to the enemy pet. I stop to think "What if this doesn't hit?"

What are my alternatives? Use a move that will deal less damage?

When it comes to the highest level trainers (like the pandaren spirits) and going up against legendary pets, there's very little (if any) margin for error.

In this case, the "error" is that the move is dodged, something completely out of our hands and often results in simply having to do the fight over until the move lands.

This adds zero strategy to the fights. Picking a move that you know has a higher miss chance but higher damage? That adds strategy because you're going with risk vs. reward. It's a choice you made.

But EVERY move having a chance to misfire adds nothing because there's simply no alternative choices.
12/12/2012 09:30 AMPosted by Tangla
Always think 'what if this doesn't hit?'


so, i should think 'what if this doesn't hit when tooltip says it WILL ALWAYS HIT?


Factor in a block. Technically, it did hit.
Okay, so let's theorycraft: I'm about to fire off a move which is going to do tons of damage to the enemy pet. I stop to think "What if this doesn't hit?"

What are my alternatives? Use a move that will deal less damage?


See, I use a Relentless strike pet on most of my PvE encounters, so the increased damage debuff is always on my mind - so I'm used to anticipating future moves.

When it comes to the highest level trainers (like the pandaren spirits) and going up against legendary pets, there's very little (if any) margin for error.


At this point, they should be on farm status. Every move they put out is predictable. And if you get the wrong starter pet to your set up. - you can forfeit with zero penalty and start again to get the desired first pet and farm away. I always put in a low level counter or a burrow/dodge pet for the bonus XP. Hell, sometimes my first pet finishes off the first two and I can stick in a very low level for massive XP.

In this case, the "error" is that the move is dodged, something completely out of our hands and often results in simply having to do the fight over until the move lands.


Where's the blue post confirming it's an 'error'?

This adds zero strategy to the fights.


That's your opinion which I disagree with.

But EVERY move having a chance to misfire adds nothing because there's simply no alternative choices.


Have you ever seen a boxing match? Not every blow lands where the boxer intends them to. They are trained to dodge some attacks. If they just stood there soaking up every hit - how would they survive that long?

I find the games to be a bit more thrilling and satisfying due to higher percentage of moves missing. Tell me you haven't breathed a sigh of relief when an NPC doesn't hit your pet who's at low health?
You'd have better luck parting Bliz Devs from their balls than you would getting them to reduce RNG in WoW.

It would be nice, though, and we can always dream.

Change to Crit is enough RNG in this minigame. What? Should my pets reforge stats for spell hit and expertise, too?
12/12/2012 10:19 AMPosted by Sventizz
Have you ever seen a boxing match? Not every blow lands where the boxer intends them to. They are trained to dodge some attacks. If they just stood there soaking up every hit - how would they survive that long?


The whole POINT of a boxing match is that the skill of the boxer determines how often they land hits and take hits.

We have no control over this type of thing in pet battles. Either the move hits or it doesn't.

You can do everything right and still lose because of factors beyond your control. Your opponent can do a number of things wrong and still win because of the same factors.

That doesn't make pet battles "more strategic". It makes it into "Mario Party" where the game can suddenly up and decide that the player who played the absolute best loses anyway.
12/12/2012 11:10 AMPosted by Destian
Have you ever seen a boxing match? Not every blow lands where the boxer intends them to. They are trained to dodge some attacks. If they just stood there soaking up every hit - how would they survive that long?


The whole POINT of a boxing match is that the skill of the boxer determines how often they land hits and take hits.

We have no control over this type of thing in pet battles. Either the move hits or it doesn't.

You can do everything right and still lose because of factors beyond your control. Your opponent can do a number of things wrong and still win because of the same factors.

That doesn't make pet battles "more strategic". It makes it into "Mario Party" where the game can suddenly up and decide that the player who played the absolute best loses anyway.


You're really missing his point. What makes boxing so exciting is that despite the skill and strategy involved, at any moment somebody could blink and catch a hook on the button and be face down on the mat.
Factor in a block. Technically, it did hit.


no, it's just unintended glitch they have to resolve by NOT using player vs NPC combat system. >.>

Also, I'd agree that 'what if it doesn't hit' logic applies to the skills that are not supposed to have 100% accuracy much like how i cross my fingers whenever I use 'focus blast' in Pokemon. But, outside of that situation, I really shouldn't have to deal with it.
L2p

Always think 'what if this doesn't hit?'. It adds an element of strategy that forces you to think ahead of moves - and I enjoy it. Working as intended.

/NOT signed


Thanks for showing me the light and how I should learn to stop being a noob. What slot machine did you practice on to become so good at Pet Battles btw?

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