Twistedmind explains 5.2 changes (pvp & pve)

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12/23/2012 03:12 AMPosted by Volios
simple as changing how much of a percentage bonus each mastery "point" provides to shield discipline. It's 2.5% per mastery point right now

already in place, hover over your mastery in game 44.39% mastery increases the effectiveness of absorbs by 44% 1-1 ratio, which is from 20% mastery flat at lv90 + 5854 mastery 24.39%. I personaly never saw the patch note with the change but its in there on tooltips for disc mastery.
12/23/2012 03:18 AMPosted by Psudo
already in place, hover over your mastery in game 44.39% mastery increases the effectiveness of absorbs by 44% 1-1 ratio, which is from 20% mastery flat at lv90 + 5854 mastery 24.39%. I personaly never saw the patch note with the change but its in there on tooltips for disc mastery.


What does this even mean? I think you misinterpreted me. I'm saying cut how much shield discipline scales per point of mastery in half. So every 600 stat points of mastery gives 1 "mastery" and every 1 mastery provides a 1.25% increase instead of a 2.5% increase to shield discipline. Shield discipline won't scale so much and as a result both SS and DA won't scale so much.

SS did scale a bit too well with mastery. I believe DA also scales too well with mastery and the 5.2 changes are not addressing this at all. In fact the 5.2 SS change makes it very difficult to adjust DA at all. The source of the problem isn't SS. The source of the problem isn't DA. The source of the problem is how Discipline absorbs scale in general. Shield mastery scaling effects ALL of our absorb scaling.

It shouldn't take a genius to say, "gee, this scales too well, let's lower how much it scales", instead of, "gee, this scales too well, let's nerf one of the problems it's causing".
my point was 600 points of mastery = 1% yes, but 1% is now only increasing absorbs by 1% not the original 2.5%
thats why i said i didnt see any notes regarding this change, its asif they ninja swap'd it
IMO Disc priest need more love! fix our mana issues! I love playing arenas late game with 0-10% mana whilst the opposing (Shamman.Pally,Druid) healer is 60-80% mana!
12/23/2012 04:03 AMPosted by Psudo
my point was 600 points of mastery = 1% yes, but 1% is now only increasing absorbs by 1% not the original 2.5%


Based on what I am seeing in-game it's still giving a 2.5% increase. It actually only takes 240 stat points of mastery to provide a 1% shield discipline increase. Lowering this 2.5% value will reduce the scaling on all Discipline shields, including SS, DA and PW:S. Lowering this value is the only way I can think of to reduce both SS and DA without creating all sorts of issues. And as I said if it creates problems for PW:S, which doesn't need to be nerfed, they can just raise the SP coefficient on that particular spell.
I agree that there are certainly issues with how well Mastery is scaling with SS right now and it's overvaluing Mastery. I kind of like the supposed new SS/Mastery interaction as it serves to tone down SS slightly whilst preventing it from scaling far too well. I just can't think of any other way to do this without completely overhauling our Mastery.


The mastery doesn't need completely overhauled. It just needs to scale less. Accomplishing this is as simple as changing how much of a percentage bonus each mastery "point" provides to shield discipline. It's 2.5% per mastery point right now. It could be reduced from this value such that all absorbs are toned down, not just SS.

You can already make DA on PoH equal to 80%+ of the heal amount in current gear. This is honestly a bit too much. My concern is it will only get worse as new tiers are released.

For the sake of argument, let's say you have the following stat values....

Mastery: 55%
Critical Strike: 15%
PoH Average Base Heal: 30,000 healing per target

Here is what you end up with these values with live values and 5.2 values (assuming the speculation about the SS change in 5.2 is correct).

Live Values: PoH = 30,000 healing + 23,250 DA, SS = 69,517 absorption
5.2 Values: PoH = 30,000 healing + 23,250 DA, SS = 61237.5 absorption

Say you keep SS the same and nerf discipline shield mastery so it provides a 1.25% increase per point of mastery instead of a 2.5% increase per point of mastery. Now your 55% mastery bonus is a 37.5% mastery bonus. If we use the SS formula from live (with 60% of the DA modifier) here is what you get...

Live Values: PoH = 30,000 healing + 20,625 DA, SS = 61,668.75 absorption

By changing mastery you're toning down DA and SS with the same change. Furthermore, it will stop the SS scaling problem and the DA scaling problem with the same change. If you push your mastery bonus up to 40% from 37.5% from gearing you end up with this...

PoH = 30,000 healing + 21,000 DA, SS = 62,790 absorption

Both abilities get a sizeable buff but it takes 1200 mastery points to go from the 37.5% bonus to a 40% bonus if each mastery point provides a 1.25% increase.

The other area of concern is they are pushing themselves into a corner with DA if the SS change goes through. What do I mean by this? Well, how do you reduce DA after putting in the 5.2 change? You could lower DA by itself, lower mastery scaling as described above or nerf PoH directly.

Let's say you drop DA from 50% to 40% using 55% mastery, 15% critical strike and a 30k PoH base heal.... Here is what you get (with the speculated 5.2 change)...

PoH = 30,000 healing, 18,600 DA
SS = 55,890 absorption.

In this case DA takes a significant nerf but continues to scale rapidly with more mastery. SS also takes a second nerf. I think this route will be counter-productive because to scale back DA you have further nerf SS.

Let's say you throw in a mastery scaling reduction and drop it from 2.5% per mastery point to 1.5% per mastery point. Now you have 41% mastery instead of 55% mastery. So with the same critical strike and PoH heal values you get this...

PoH = 30,000 healing, 21,150 DA
SS = 58,822.5 absorption

This is a little bit better because it solves DA scaling better while nerfing both abilities less. It's still piling two nerfs on top of SS though.

I think it's safe to say directly nerfing PoH is out, short of splitting Holy PoH from Discipline PoH somehow, because it also nerfs Holy.

In a nutshell nerfing shield mastery seems to be a better concept. The only drawback is PW:S also takes a hit from scaling back mastery. If this becomes a huge issue it's a simple matter of increasing the SP coefficient on PW:S to compensate. The only reason I could think to nerf SS by itself is they believe DA contribution is fine as it stands. I'd have to disagree given the disparity between how much absorbs over-heal compared to actual heals.


All of that assumes that mastery is overvalued. It's not. Mastery is already a fairly weak stat on live, with very compelling arguments towards haste or crit stacking. In fact haste stacking could raise your overall healing as much as 30% RIGHT NOW if you have the mana to support it.

The ~25% total average nerf to mastery this patch is accomplishing simply takes an already weak stat that is only favored because of it's strategic value, and makes it worthless even for that value.

Of course, mastery is only even strategic because of it's interaction with spirit shell, so the nerf to mastery there is actually more of an impact than the overall nerf. The goal to stacking mastery is to make spirit shell bigger, so it can absorb a bigger raid AoE. That is pretty much the only reason you should have mastery now, otherwise you should be fully invested in crit or haste already (this includes you 10man people, stack crit or haste, NOW). With that goal eliminated, even if they compensated for the overall mastery nerf and buffed it back for other spells, we would STILL favor crit or haste (depending on mana).

But you seem to think that absorbs are worth more because overhealing. They aren't. This isn't an argument I can even make here, it's been done to death. Absorbs do NOT need nerfing just because they are absorbs and our mastery is NOT automatically too strong because it buffs our absorbs.
Based on this formula - SS heal = Average heal * (1+crit) * {1+[0.5*(1+mastery)]} and on this log http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-rjx6eubi0c4c8amn/details/9/?s=9146&e=10035.

Assuming healing breakdowns stay the same and raid buffed stats of 14.47% crit and 57.08% mastery,

% SS contributes to overall throughput without stats = 30.5% / (1.1447 * 1.7854) = 14.9%
% SS contributes to overall throughput from stats = 15.6%

Based on a mastery:crit ratio of 0.833:1 for SS, and accounting for the difference in stat values, you obtain an effective ratio of 19:14.47. This results in 8.86% and 6.74% of the overall throughput contributed from 57.08% mastery and 14.47% crit respectively.

Assuming overhealing stays constant regardless of whether the PoH is a crit,

% non-crit PoH DA contributes to overall throughput without mastery = 13.9% / 1.5708 = 8.9%
% non-crit PoH DA contributes to overall throughput from mastery = 5%

and moving on,

% crit PoH DA contributes to overall throughput without stats = 14.8% / (1.1447 * 1.5708) = 8.2%
% crit PoH DA contributes to overall throughput from stats= 6.6%

Based on a mastery:crit ratio of 2.5:1 for DA, and accounting for the difference in stat values, you obtain an effective ratio of 57.08:14.47. This results in 5.27% and 1.33% of the overall throughput contributed from 57.08% mastery and 14.47% crit respectively.

Since PW:S does not benefit from crit,

% PW:S contributes to overall throughput without mastery = 10.6% / 1.5708 = 6.7%
% PW:S contributes to overall throughput from mastery = 3.9%

Since all the other heals do not benefit from mastery,

% other heals contribute to overall throughput without crit = 30.2% / 1.1447 = 26.4%
% other heals contribute to overall throughput from crit = 3.8%

Thus, 14.47% crit contributes 11.87% to overall throughput and 57.08% mastery contributes 23.03% to overall throughput. Or, 600 crit rating provides a 0.82% increase while 600 mastery rating provides a 1.01% increase post-patch. The numbers are going to shift in Mastery's favour if you use more DA/PW:S and vice versa.

These aren't exact numbers, and my assumption is that the two stats interact multiplicatively. Feel free to point out any glaring mistakes.
12/23/2012 07:52 AMPosted by Ceddya
Since all the other heals do not benefit from mastery,

Your post is extremely helpful but other heals do benifit from mastery, it's just very slight. If you include that, it would help your cause slightly by pushing the mastery giving increased healing % higher.

The problems are with stat weights is we need to apply them for lower values too instead of our current values. Say we did 55% mastery and 15% crit. The weights show that mastery is increasing our total healing more than crit is because we're looking at the percent breakdowns of the spells, but we actually need to take the total secondary stats of both mastery and crit and plot both showing the interchange between the two to find a ratio of how much increased healing they are doing. Typically speaking, because the stats will play off one another in some way, the higher you go to one stat, the more pseudo point value your others will have. The reason spirit shell and divine aegis are showing more of a percentage on our healing done breakdowns is because we're stacking mastery out the butt. The percent breakdown might look very different if you we're stacking purely crit, and we need to find out how these two are multiplied by one another in a typical spell choice breakdown (not healing done % breakdown). Is this kind of clear? It's answering your earlier question of what are the stat weights.

Looking at:
Based on a mastery:crit ratio of 0.833:1 for SS, and accounting for the difference in stat values, you obtain an effective ratio of 19:14.47. This results in 8.86% and 6.74% of the overall throughput contributed from 57.08% mastery and 14.47% crit respectively.

The mastery crit ratio is from the current secondary stats taken at the time of that log I'd assume. What I'm getting at is we need to take the sum of those stats, divide them up at differing proportions, and plot their behavior to see if gaining crit at the expense of mastery will do more for the healing done. This is because spirit shell is still multiplied by crit (as you said).

I'll work a little on plotting those, but it would be cool if haste entered the equation. The reason I'm avoiding it is because I want to keep my time until oom on spells roughly the same as they are in my current gear, but that was when rapture was 200%. If rapture goes to 250%, I will be getting more mana per point of spirit so running more haste next tier is what I'm leaning on. So if anyone wants to help or work on what I'm looking at, you first determine the spirit needed to complete the encounter, the acceptable haste value, the ilevel you want to match to these two stats, and then how much secondary stat remains for stacking into crit or mastery. Then, plot these against each other at differing values for haste, crit, and mastery and we should at least have an early guess to stat weights. This whole model goes to hell when trying to guess what our spell choices will be, but I'd tentatively say more greater heals will be sustainable, and more pw:s than we're used to, even if we end up having low mastery.

The argument can still be made that mastery has a higher "value" than crit or haste because pw:s on low hp people is what saves lives, and saving lives is more what we need to look at over raw hps. Raw hps checks come up in encounters, but even in low gear they are kind of forgiving.

Brb, stat weighting
The argument can still be made that mastery has a higher "value" than crit or haste because pw:s on low hp people is what saves lives, and saving lives is more what we need to look at over raw hps. Raw hps checks come up in encounters, but even in low gear they are kind of forgiving.


I generally dislike this argument (had it a tons in shaman community mastery vs crit) as more often than not if someone is low and need healing ASAP he was low before he took the damage spike, as far as I can think of there is no encounter this tier where someone goes from being topped off to being sub 10%, stay there for around 1 sec and then get hit again by something that won't deal more than 15% of his health. What I'm getting at is that crit or haste would do the job just fined since topping people off is just as valuable as saving them at low health, since doing the first make the second scenario non existent.

About SS, if you really, really want to get naughty on the theory, you could determine haste breakpoint where you can squeeze in extra PoH when using SS, with that in mind (if you're not consistently getting people to 60%) haste could become very interesting. As twisted said our mana regen is getting very good (I don't have heroic gear and I'm already getting to the point where mana is a non issue), so I think in one tier from now we'll all be stacking haste since more haste mean more crits which mean more DA, so you have additive return (is that a term) for haste where crit only has that for mastery (more crit = more DA) and mastery simply does not have any of that.
12/23/2012 10:44 AMPosted by Meit
About SS, if you really, really want to get naughty on the theory, you could determine haste breakpoint where you can squeeze in extra PoH when using SS,


The haste break point looks to be 19% haste raid buffed to get 7 casts of SS/PoH without IF and 8 with IF active.

The downside is that you trade it for a lot of efficiency, and your DA is going to shield for considerably less per cast. The obvious upside is that you get an extra SS/PoH cast, and with the new Solace, the extra ~10% haste will make it easier to weave it into your rotation.
@Twistedmind, trying to properly factor in the interplay between Mastery and Crit goes beyond my capabilities as an e-mathematician. It would be nice if someone could plot a graph showing how these two stats interact, as I suspect there might be an ideal ratio of mastery:crit

Still, despite my wonky math, I was only trying to show that for fights with that feature heavy DA usage, Mastery will still be the optimal stat post-patch. That being said, the converse is true for fights with >1 min timers.
Guess I shall see a nerf in my healing then. Had enough mana, with flask and a lil downtime at points to basically play divine aegis king. Select one group, prayer of healing, select another. Then when damage comes I just mitigate all of it. Yes being able to get a very strong shield on everyone from spirit shell was great, but now to me it isn't such a great thing anymore. Still strong, but now it feels a little more single targety. May change as tiers go on, since with everything up, was easily able to get a 10 man group to max absorb and say for the guardians of mogushan. the canines. First boss of first raid. I can negate an entire overload by myself with ease.

Right now, this seems like its mixed. Great since next tier we would be a little too powerful with mastery the way it is now and interactions. A shame to see them not scale, but I enjoy mastery. I enjoy getting about 100k absorb shields instantly. A shame, but I guess it is for the better one way or another.
12/23/2012 10:44 AMPosted by Meit
About SS, if you really, really want to get naughty on the theory, you could determine haste breakpoint where you can squeeze in extra PoH when using SS, with that in mind (if you're not consistently getting people to 60%) haste could become very interesting.


You actually can't calculate such a 'haste breakpoint'. Unlike with DoT/HoT effects where the timing is deterministic once you cast it, minor variations in communications destroy any hope of quantifying the right 'breakpoint' to match spell casting windows - and that's in a Patchwerk raid. Add in any sort of complexity and you're just making a wild guess.

12/23/2012 01:13 PMPosted by Hryssar
Guess I shall see a nerf in my healing then. Had enough mana, with flask and a lil downtime at points to basically play divine aegis king. Select one group, prayer of healing, select another. Then when damage comes I just mitigate all of it. Yes being able to get a very strong shield on everyone from spirit shell was great, but now to me it isn't such a great thing anymore. Still strong, but now it feels a little more single targety. May change as tiers go on, since with everything up, was easily able to get a 10 man group to max absorb and say for the guardians of mogushan. the canines. First boss of first raid. I can negate an entire overload by myself with ease.


Using such circumstances as a basis for analysis is a bit like asking the question: "If five different cars are all going the speed limit, which one is the fastest?".
From a guy who isn't capable of understanding all the mathematical stuff you guys write out, and who tends to follow the 'in conclusion, stack X' summaries at the end, I'd just like to thank everyone who's investigating these changes and discussing the maths and whatnot, 'cos I certainly aren't able to do it.

From what I've read so far, I'm believing that Crit will be the better stat if the actual healing portion of our spells is being used, and if it's mainly just the absorbs, then Mastery will be better.

Personally, to negotiate a balance between mana-spent and throughput, I tend use Smite/HF/Penance during low-damage portions of a fight, and use AA and SS in anticipation of the 'big bad attack' the boss uses. If there's no particularly hard-hitting attack and it's more of a consistent aura, then I'll just use AA on CD, SS on CD (making sure AA is paired with SS), and just spam PoH for the rest of it.
Well, this stat weighting is proving to be more difficult than I thought. The things that are hanging me up are:
- Spell choice variance. Each fight (for me) is radically different
- Inner focus is hard. It's difficult to see when and where I used it for what.
- My speculation that haste and spirit will be up much higher next tier. This will do things like more evangelism building spells per minute, and more gheal bombing.
- Multiplying ilevels doesn't account for gem choices, gem bonuses, and enchants

Some early findings though:
- Sotanaht is right about crit being better for all around usage over mastery. This is accounting for spirit shell on cd, rapture on 15 sec, and a healthy dose of DA rolling per minute.
- You're still going to want to stack mastery for strength of soul or divine insight fights.
- Haste is looking to be best, but only if you have the spirit. The current 5.1 says this too, but rapture isn't at 250% yet and we still gem for spirit to push us over the level needed to return the mana cost of pw:s. After the rapture return = 0 spirit level (7320 next patch), each point of spirit can be matched with 1 haste, roughly speaking.
- Playing with haste can oom you faster than you think. I'm trying to account for the times where I use smite at low evangelism stacks or when PoH/Cascade go into overhealing, but small increments of haste change things very quickly.
- I always thought we'd be gemming mastery once we had enough spirit, but we actually might want to be gemming int. This is because the average value of int in some cases is exceeding the 2:1 ratio of a secondary stat. For most of my aoe breakdowns, this isn't the case because PoH has a slow cast time, but if you're throttled by how much haste you can have relative to your spirit, gemming int doesn't look too bad.
- For spirit shelling and softcaps, running ~16.66% haste will fit 7 PoH casts into your rotation. This isn't accounting for latency or a delay in Spirit Shell activation and the first PoH cast. I would say this is worth gearing for next time because 16.65% is an extra lightwell tick and sanctuary tick for holy. However, the 7th cast in a 10 man isn't really effective because the group you're casting on will be capped, or at least be really close to capped in 3 casts. This is most subject to your mastery/crit %

Things I'm struggling with
- Inner focus. Modeling this is hard because it gets used for PoH and Gheal. If my theory is correct that we will be throwing around gheals more for spot healing, each point of haste will actually slightly lessen that value of each point of crit.
- Crits and overhealing.
- Shields and overhealing.
- The perfect number for haste and spirit.

It's not inaccurate to say that we will most likely be stacking some other secondary besides mastery next tier, so the dumb priests who read into world of logs rankings or the spell percent breakdowns will probably simmer down because Divine Aegis and Spirit Shell won't be as high. The dumbs who are crying bloody murder because of our higher dps (compared to other healers) will be out for blood if we shift from mastery to haste stacking.

@Vol, the reasons they haven't adjusted mastery scaling point per point is because it actually doesn't give a significant boost to our throughput across all of our spells, and the ones it does work for are too high. Axing it down will break pvp, and adjusting the coefficient from spellpower would simply put int at the number 1 spot on everything by a much wider margin. That's not a bad thing, but the official statement is that secondary stats need to matter more, so it's more likely that the other classes will be changed around to have situational secondary stats like our class, rather than the other way around.
Also, as I posted here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7414953642?page=4#70
I might be looking at a very fixed breakdown of stats next tier. Something like:
4717 haste for the holy and spirit shell softcaps
4800 mastery to retain the previous value of mastery scaling
7320+4717 spirit to both make the mana cost of the pw:s mana neutral and to account for haste
and the rest crit (about 2446)
hopefully able to gem for int, but that's depending on how much gear has spirit on it
What a great discussion this is. Thank you to Twisted and everyone involved.
Well hopefully things will change a bit before live, so too much stat theocracy at this point isn't very useful. I honestly think that SS should be affected by mastery, since mastery is suppose to boost every shield and SS is a shield. I really think blizz just dug themselves into a corner by increasing DA to 50%, that's why they didn't scale SS with it in 5.1. Now they don't want to lose face by reducing DA scaling (which is imo what I think they should do, and thats coming from someone who stack crit over mastery) so instead there trying to balance around it, and just makings things more complicated for nothing.

I honestly wouldn't mind something bigger like nerfing DA all the way to 20% and removing the CD on SS. It might sounds incredibly OP, but badly used it would just drain you of your mana really fast.

As it is right now I just think well be stacking haste come 5.1 (keeping spirit around 10K) and going for crit after that avoiding mastery.
You actually can't calculate such a 'haste breakpoint'. Unlike with DoT/HoT effects where the timing is deterministic once you cast it, minor variations in communications destroy any hope of quantifying the right 'breakpoint' to match spell casting windows - and that's in a Patchwerk raid. Add in any sort of complexity and you're just making a wild guess.


Of course you can calculate the absolute haste needed to fit an extra PoH cast within the 15 second window. :/

What you can't calculate is the realistic amount needed. However, you certainly wouldn't be making a "wild" guess when adding a buffer zone to the absolute haste. You'd simply calculate a reasonable buffer.

Is it worth it with our current gear? Doubtful. Is it impossible? No.

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