natures vigil being changed.

Druid
I'll be running SotF now. It's really THAT bad. It's just another cooldown to track, and we have enough of those.


I made a thread on the DD forums for discussion as devs rarely read the posts on class ones: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7415153613

If you guys don't mind - please let's take this discussion there and upvote / like etc to bring it to attention. Or it will likely die just as always....

SOTF looks quite good tbh, but I'm no expert either. It makes the non-eclipse cycle down to 1 cast only, meaning HUGE eclipse uptime boost. Mastery stacking is *starting to look potentially* attractive now. Cyous can probably help me here? :P

NV change is a massive nerf to our PVE dps no doubt, and HOTW / DoC need to be buffed significantly if that is to go as is. Our tier 6 keeps on going from bad to worse... it's like the devs know very little on how to handle that tier entirely...
What's your definition of "massive nerf", btw?
Because in the absolute worst case scenario of a fight where 100% of your damage is done under NV (i.e., a 30 second encounter), it's an 8.3% nerf.

In more realistic terms, it's more like ~3% (if even), depending on fight mechanics/lengths and how much you actually gain from CD stacking.

Heck, if not for other CDs, and lost uptime for fights that don't have it allow an extra use, it wouldn't even be a nerf.
My insight into the NV nerf (please note I've used the H BiS list to do these estimates):

Say we just drop NV completely. Let's look at our DPS numbers in WrathCalcs without a L90 talent. Turning off NV we get 103969.41, which is a 3.87% DPS loss.

This means, were NV to be nerfed to give a 0% damage increase, we would lose 3.87% DPS.

But this is not the case. Instead, we're presented with a smaller difference: we lose 10% of our burst damage each CD cycle, but we gain 10% extra damage for roughly one eclipse cycle each CD cycle. This is because the length of NV is 30 sec and the length of an eclipse cycle is about 31.59 roughly, according to WrathCalcs in H BiS.

Imagine NV didn't have its cooldown reduced, and was instead 10% extra damage on a 3 min CD. This makes the contribution of NV exactly half, and would thus be a 1.93% DPS nerf.

However, this isn't the case either. Instead, we know it's between a 0% nerf and a 1.93% nerf, offset by the additional DPS we get from NV outside the burst phase.

WrathCalcs estimates the steady-state damage of an eclipse cycle to be 3095421.71. Let us also take WrathCalcs estimation of a CD cycle to be 187.9 seconds. If we average out the contribution of the 10% additional damage for one eclipse cycle each CD cycle, we arrive at AvgEclipseCycle*(1+0.1*30/187.9)=3144843.02, resulting in a 49421.32 damage increase each 187.9 second cycle.

Factoring in our damage from our burst phase as well, and we arrive at 106977.05 DPS, which is a 1.09% nerf, is within our nerf range and is a reasonable answer.

Thus, this nerf isn't as extraordinary as one might think. Of course, since it's another button to press that now cannot be aligned with Incarnation 50% of the time, user error could reduce the effectiveness of NV outside the burst phase. However, and it's important to note, that due to eclipse cycle lengths there is a period of time (optimally, 7.9 seconds) between our 3 min CDs coming off and us reaching the pinnacle of Lunar eclipse. If we delay using NV for longer than 7.9 seconds once it comes off during the non-burst phase, then it wont be up in time for our burst phase; conversely, if it's pressed within 7.9 seconds of coming off CD, no DPS loss occurs.

Overall, we will see a substantial nerf to our burst damage, but we will see a slight improvement to one eclipse cycle every 3 minutes or so. The damage from the non-burst phase slightly offsets the damage loss from having 10% NV during burst, so the nerf is not as powerful. Once we're able to go on the PTR and confirm these results, it will clarify the changes. Needless to say, I'll have to go over the scenario of HotW being better than NV now, and I'll be excluding DoC because, practically, it isn't as useful as it is on paper.

Edit: To find the numbers I'm quoting, download the latest WrathCalcs (12.12.20). The older version had a difference in DPS numbers, so you'll get different results. This is all basically napkin-math anyway, so if you see a heinous error don't hesitate to call me out and ridicule me in front of the whole community of boomchickens.

Edit 2: Just to clarify, this is assuming a single-target fight with no damage modifiers. For a fight with multiple-targets or damage modifiers, the nerf will be larger. As we do not have a model capable of correctly estimating these scenarios, I can't tell you how much NV has been nerfed, but it should not be *much* more than 1.09%, maybe up to 2% at most.
Thanks for nothing blizz... Where is our sustained PvE dps buff? Why did you just shove DoC rotation down our throats? Gods is hate this "DoC rotation" with a burning seeping hatred >.< I bet blizzard does not even know people use DoC in a PvE rotation, because it's like weapon swapping or powershifting, something extremely clunky, something that they'd usually fix right away or nerf when they'd find out. I'd pick "powershifting with mana oil" from the days of Burning Crusade over DoC gladly though.
Thanks for nothing blizz... Where is our sustained PvE dps buff? Why did you just shove DoC rotation down our throats? Gods is hate this "DoC rotation" with a burning seeping hatred >.< I bet blizzard does not even know people use DoC in a PvE rotation, because it's like weapon swapping or powershifting, something extremely clunky, something that they'd usually fix right away or nerf when they'd find out. I'd pick "powershifting with mana oil" from the days of Burning Crusade over DoC gladly though.


If we were to switch talents, as far as I know we wouldn't pick DoC anyway - it's clunky for single-target, but it's harder to work its magic for multi-target fights. HotW is still a nice passive damage bonus were we to lose NV.


Don't take this as an insult but you have no idea what you are talking about. This change is terrible in every possible way.


I don't take it as an insult because it's true. I don't have any idea what I'm talking about because I just started on my boomkin maybe two months ago. I like this change still, either way.

couldn't have said it better myself
12/21/2012 09:17 PMPosted by Halfatree
This is horrible for moonkins... I can't believe they have succumbed to the pvp QQ about ferals and made such a wide sweeping change.


If you think this is just a change to ferals your crazy 90% of all moonkins picked the same talents. They are balancing the tree. So not every druid has to pick NV without choice.
This change diminishes the output of Incarnation for Balance. Resto shouldn't be affected much if at all. Not really sure about Feral/Guardian.
As a healer I liked to macro this with Tranquility since the cooldowns were the same, and I made the most effective use of it that way. That's a 50% nerf if I continue to use it in that fashion. I'm sure the rejuv buff will more than compensate.
This is horrible for moonkins... I can't believe they have succumbed to the pvp QQ about ferals and made such a wide sweeping change.


If you think this is just a change to ferals your crazy 90% of all moonkins picked the same talents. They are balancing the tree. So not every druid has to pick NV without choice.

They they need to make the other options more attractive:

DOC - The hardest spell rotation in WoW (it's basically a John Madden build meets (Anti-) Flame Wraith [Kara]).
NV - Synergistic with other cooldowns
HOTW - Passive stats and off-Role options (6min cooldow, 45sec duration)

NV is easier to use, offers a nice secondary effect. It's not that a DOC rotation isn't viable, it's just ridiculously hard to perform without interrupts. If you have ANY copious movement, DOC is significantly worse than NV or HOTW.
If this goes live, I'd like the HOTW cooldown to come down to 3 minutes. Might be a possible defense for balance druids in pvp... pop it, and heal like a resto on crack. Thoughts?
I like the NV change. It's a pretty nice buff.
12/22/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Hellokitti
I like the NV change. It's a pretty nice buff.

No druid spell as a 90sec cooldown (Starfall does, but it's reset every Lunar Eclipse, so it doesn't matter).

All it did was nerf burst, increase flexibilty, add ANOTHER COOLDOWN to track.
12/22/2012 05:25 PMPosted by Cyous
All it did was nerf burst, increase flexibilty, add ANOTHER COOLDOWN to track.


And make it useless for ferals in PvE. It just forces ferals into the DoC build which also forces us to take natures swiftness on the second talent tier to make that worthwhile. So a more cookie cutter PvE spec inc.
I don't get why so many ferals are obsessed with the (supposed) dps increase of DoC... DoC takes away your ability to use your PS procs for survival instead of DPS. And (last I checked) DoC is only a 4% increase over HotW/NV and that's only when executed perfectly on a Patchwerk fight (and how many people can do that while dealing with encounter mechanics)

To me, HotW is far more valuable a talent. As far as NV goes, yeah its no longer as strong a pure dps upgrade (by a tiny amount), but it now provides healing twice as often (upto 33% uptime). Everyone seems to completely discount this.
To me, HotW is far more valuable a talent. As far as NV goes, yeah its no longer as strong a pure dps upgrade (by a tiny amount), but it now provides healing twice as often (upto 33% uptime). Everyone seems to completely discount this.


You are forgetting mastery in that. Ferals stack mastery which increases bleeds. DoC is used on rake and rip (with NS and if you're really lucky a PS proc during berserk) .. .that is a lot more damage than a flat stat increase.
12/22/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Waraila
To me, HotW is far more valuable a talent. As far as NV goes, yeah its no longer as strong a pure dps upgrade (by a tiny amount), but it now provides healing twice as often (upto 33% uptime). Everyone seems to completely discount this.


You are forgetting mastery in that. Ferals stack mastery which increases bleeds. DoC is used on rake and rip (with NS and if you're really lucky a PS proc during berserk) .. .that is a lot more damage than a flat stat increase.


4-5% is "a lot"?

I just did 2 3 min dummy tests (yah I'd need a lot more to be accurate but I'm lazy).

~59k after 3 min with HotW
~62k after 3 mins with DoC (5% increase)

Note that this is on a training dummy when I can 100% concentrate on doing a perfect rotation. I'd bet that the actual gains in real fights hover around 2-3% (and only if you're good at the rotation; if you're not, chances are its a dps nerf).

You're still ignoring the survivability advantages of the other two. HotW allows you to double the potency of your tranquility, making it a better raid cooldown (in addition to being able to function as a pinch tank/healer). DoC actually costs you survivability because you're using HT rotationally instead of when its needed to heal.

NV isn't that great for ferals but its far more potent for Boomies as 100% of their damage done is converted to healing instead of 70-80% for ferals.

Yes, DoC is best if ALL you care about is damage (and you can pull it off). But, the objective is to kill the boss and damage is only one facet of that.
I don't really see how the NV change is a big deal for ferals, and it's been my main choice of 90 talent for most of the current tier.

Berserk is up for only half of an NV cast; beyond that a big portion of your NV damage came from the rolling rip, rake, and ideally thrash that you put up just before NV runs out.

Twice the up-time with half the strength strikes me as roughly a damage wash, but in practice I think I may actually be able to squeeze out more damage with it. It'll still line up with TF and certain trinket ICDs, plus having a shorter CD means a lot more room to line it up with boss mechanics.
12/22/2012 06:21 PMPosted by Lolaan
NV isn't that great for ferals but its far more potent for Boomies as 100% of their damage done is converted to healing instead of 70-80% for ferals.

You mean 25% of all single-target damage dealt is duplicated as healing, unless the wording is funny and you meant something different. The passive healing isn't that important; it's useful, but really not needed for most PvE encounters.

Healing tanks in the openers for ~80k HPS is really nice though, helps stabilize the tanks and spot-heal any DPS.
It's not 100% for moonkins. Starfall, which is about 25% of our damage done during Cds, doesn't get its damage converted to healing. So only 75% or so of our damage during Cds has 25% of it converted to healing.

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