Guardian Druid Stat Priority

Druid
I feel like there is so much misinformation out there in regard to what the stat priority is for guardian druids. This Forum, Icy Veins, Noxxic, and ElitistJerks...all slightly say something different.

whats the stat priority and what should you gem? I'm staring at this yellow socket thinking I originally heard critical strike but now I read haste and I'm not sure if I should do agility/haste and agility/crit or just straight crit or straight haste.
Crit is better at low gear levels. Never gem for agility because secondary stat gems give far more stats than a primary gem will. Whether or not you want to hit/expertise cap is totally preference, but I would recommend in doing so. It gives you a steady income of rage, and your will generation will get much better the higher ilvl your gear gets if you maintain hit/expertise caps.

I go hit/expertise cap (7.5% and 15%) > crit => haste > mastery.
Noxxic is just bad, EJ doesn't really have anything on Guardians anymore, and I talk to Vlad regularly.

Never gem Agility (unless you absolutely have to).

Choosing between Haste and Expertise is largely dependant on what kind of content you are doing. Crit is more DPS and more raw RPS. Haste is more mitigation via T&C.
Since 5.1 I've been hearing that crit tanks are the way to go. Stack and reforge crit and your Savage Defense is up all the time. This gives you a bunch more damage with all the crit and you end up with more dodge than you could reforge to because Savage Defense is always up.

So maybe you could reforge to 30 or 40 percent dodge, but if you stack crit, you get all of the damage that provides and 45 percent dodge with Savage Defense being up continuously.
I reforge/gem for rage and I love it. Hit, Expertise and Crit are the best stats. I can often pull off Savage Defenses and run them constant until I run out of charges. it really keeps the health up there. By the time I'm out it's normally time for a tank swap.

There are still some who swear by passive mitigation stats like Dodge and Mastery, but those stats are terrible for fights like Stone Guard that bypass them. Active mitigation priorities let me pool rage during taunt swaps and lay on the defense when my turn is up. They also let me bypass mitigation and turn rage into direct healing if the situation warrant. You won't get that kind of in fight flexibility with passive stats.

Choosing between Haste and Expertise is largely dependant on what kind of content you are doing. Crit is more DPS and more raw RPS. Haste is more mitigation via T&C.


I disagree. I think of raw RPS as raw mitigation since that's where the rage goes. So this makes crit a winner. It also provides a 4% heal of total health every 6 seconds. This creates some synergy with our high Stam values.

Tooth and Claw has been fairly week in my screen captures for mitigation and I already have more Tooth and Claw procs than I can really use without reforging for haste.
01/21/2013 08:56 PMPosted by Urek
I disagree. I think of raw RPS as raw mitigation since that's where the rage goes. So this makes crit a winner. It also provides a 4% heal of total health every 6 seconds. This creates some synergy with our high Stam values.


Haste/Crit are very close when it comes to rage generation, so the first two sentences make no sense. LotP, while not terrible, isn't something we really gear for; odds are it's going to proc nearly on CD whether you haste or crit stack.

While they aren't terribly common, there are places where I don't have enough T&C procs to spend all my rage. Most notable is Gara'jal, since reducing damage on that fight is so much better than trying to heal it. Going forward towards even higher RPS, I'd imagine that situation will become more common. So gearing towards haste can have merits.

(I'm just a DPS at heart, so, crit for me).

So maybe you could reforge to 30 or 40 percent dodge, but if you stack crit, you get all of the damage that provides and 45 percent dodge with Savage Defense being up continuously.

Hot damn, if we could get to 30% dodge from reforging, you bet we would. 40%? No contest there, outside of obvious gimmicks like stone guard/lei shi where dodge is actually bad. Sadly, we're probably stuck in the low 20s, and that just doesn't cover for the lost RPS.
01/21/2013 08:56 PMPosted by Urek
I disagree. I think of raw RPS as raw mitigation since that's where the rage goes. So this makes crit a winner. It also provides a 4% heal of total health every 6 seconds. This creates some synergy with our high Stam values.
LotP has a significant amount of overheal, and should never be relied upon or geared for.

Even on a fight where it would be ideal (Stone Guard) it still has a 20% OH. On top of not being controllable.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-xv2zv116lsyjzgq9/details/6/?s=808&e=1144

01/21/2013 08:56 PMPosted by Urek
Tooth and Claw has been fairly week in my screen captures for mitigation and I already have more Tooth and Claw procs than I can really use without reforging for haste.
I think you missed the point. I still suggest going for Crit before Haste. It's just that you take Haste before everything else.

If you're doing 25m heroic you might consider taking Haste before Crit because DPS doesn't matter as much, and your mitigation via T&C will be much higher thanks to Vengeance.

For normals there's no reason to not take Crit over Haste.
I don't understand the disagreement. We all agree that stat priorities are Hit/Exp (7.5) > Crit > Haste. I wasn't suggesting that you gear for Leader of the Pack as much as providing a secondary incentive to Crit that isn't rage related. This is much like you did, Arielle, when you mentioned that Haste has a secondary benefit of increasing the Proc rate of Tooth and Claw. I don't think I missed any points.

Critical strikes from auto-attacks and Mangle are going to be your biggest source of Rage. Haste will increase the number of auto-attacks per fight, but has not effect on Mangles per fight. Crit affects both auto-attacks and Mangles. I think this makes a good argument of Crit over Haste.

To further the argument, I still have found Tooth and Claw is a sub-optimal use of rage as compared to Frenzied Regeneration and Savage Defense with one exception: when I'm casting it on a target that isn't attacking me. If you want to prevent damage in a Voodoo Doll situation Savage Defense will outperform Tooth and Claw. This is especially true with his special attack and immediately following a taunt/pull.
01/22/2013 12:09 PMPosted by Urek
We all agree that stat priorities are Hit/Exp (7.5) > Crit > Haste.
I recommend capping Expertise first, but for the sake of argument, sure.

01/22/2013 12:09 PMPosted by Urek
I wasn't suggesting that you gear for Leader of the Pack as much as providing a secondary incentive to Crit that isn't rage related. This is much like you did, Arielle, when you mentioned that Haste has a secondary benefit of increasing the Proc rate of Tooth and Claw. I don't think I missed any points.
LotP and T&C aren't comparable in a strict 1:1 though. LotP is random, heals for a set amount based on HP, and requires no additional attention on the part of the user.

T&C is controlled by the user, scales with Vengeance, and is only usable with Maul.

01/22/2013 12:09 PMPosted by Urek
Critical strikes from auto-attacks and Mangle are going to be your biggest source of Rage. Haste will increase the number of auto-attacks per fight, but has not effect on Mangles per fight. Crit affects both auto-attacks and Mangles. I think this makes a good argument of Crit over Haste.
Not really. Crit's RPS after capping Hit&Exp is at best 10% more than Haste. Further, that difference becomes smaller and smaller the more your Crit increases and your Haste doesn't.

And once you hit 79% Crit on your character sheet (possible with trinket procs - and definitely in the next tier) you just stop adding more, or swap to a Haste trinket instead. For normal modes sure, there's no reason to ever not take Crit over Haste since there's no danger of capping in this manner.

01/22/2013 12:09 PMPosted by Urek
To further the argument, I still have found Tooth and Claw is a sub-optimal use of rage as compared to Frenzied Regeneration and Savage Defense with one exception: when I'm casting it on a target that isn't attacking me.
There's an additional exception: When you're at 100 Rage (or close to it) and have no reason to use FR. This happens more and more often as your gear improves.

Or on Heroic Gara'jal when you're timing Savage Defense for Shadowy Attacks, and want to mitigate some damage in the interim. Or for Thrash on Sha. Or during Berserk/Incarnation. There's more than the one simple use.

The choice is never between T&C and SD. SD is always better. The choice is between using Rage and not using Rage.
I keep wanting to find a thread to ask this question in. At one point it was argued that Crit gave more RPS than Hit/Expertise. Has this been determined for sure one way or the other? I'd like to get all the way up to 15% Expertise, but I will have to sacrifice a lot of Crit to get there.

Current stats are roughly 7.5% Hit/Expertise and ~38.5% Crit self buffed. (Sorry for the gloves, forgot to swap them out before I logged off last night.) I know I need to swap a couple of enchants around as well for more Crit. I'd opted for some more stamina options when I was tanking HoF at a 463 iLvl and haven't gotten back to them.
01/23/2013 09:34 AMPosted by Everythang
At one point it was argued that Crit gave more RPS than Hit/Expertise. Has this been determined for sure one way or the other?

On average Crit will generate more RPS than Hit or Expertise (so will Haste). However Hit and Expertise will make your Rage generation more consistent. Since consistency is the most desirable thing in a tank, Hit and Exp to cap are recommended over Crit.

Plus the fact that Hit and Exp are better DPS stats.

That being said, it's all a matter of personal taste. Find the balance that feels right for you.
Ah, OK. I hadn't seen anyone explain it like that yet. Thanks! I imagine it's because I only really seriously started tanking about a month ago when we lost our OT from the main group so I'm catching up on the class research.

Since I occasionally find myself at lower rage when Thrash is coming at me on Sha, I'll reforge some of my Crit back into Expertise to get closer to 15% and see how that works.
Got home about 5 minutes before raid time so only reforged a few things to get up to 11%. Doing a full reforge tonight to try to boost my DPS more, but what I did change seemed to help a bit.
01/22/2013 04:58 PMPosted by Arielle
Or for Thrash on Sha.


If you T&C right before a Thrash, are all three hits reduced, or only the first?
I follow this formula:

Hit/Exp caps, exp cap being 15%, then all-out crit, eventually haste will make sense once you get more rage than you can spend (Aka, savage defense is on cooldown, you use maul everytime tooth and claw procs and you still sit at 100rage). If you still can't spend your rage well.. might be a good spot for mastery to make it's entrace. but other stats also help your dps.

If you T&C right before a Thrash, are all three hits reduced, or only the first?


Only the first, but it will nearly negate it, making pooling rage, using savage def + tooth and claw maul the best combo you can get for sha's thrash.
01/21/2013 08:56 PMPosted by Urek
There are still some who swear by passive mitigation stats like Dodge and Mastery, but those stats are terrible for fights like Stone Guard that bypass them


The bleed on stone guard bypasses every single survival mechanic bears have except frenzied regen, so a high rage build only helps if your spamming the crap out of that. So with the exception of mastery no stat is any worse on that fight than anything else.

Screw dodge.
01/25/2013 01:17 PMPosted by Dreyen
Only the first, but it will nearly negate it, making pooling rage, using savage def + tooth and claw maul the best combo you can get for sha's thrash.

More accurately, it works on the first swing that actually hits you. It doesn't get used if you dodge a melee attack.

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