5.4 WW PvE Guide: Dance of the White Tiger

Monk
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@Staraptor

.. are you attacking the dummy/boss from the front? Expertise over 7.5% literally does NOTHING when you attack from the back.
I've found chi-wave to be a dps gain, especially when used during a target swap to lead, or when running back into a boss after having to move out; it's also able to be fit in when you have no chi/energy as just a filler.
hey endangered can you tell me what you are doing with gear? One day I see you stacking mastery and now you are stacking haste and crit?
The mastery thing was when I was still dual wielding, but I coined an heroic thunderforged staff so I'm kind of stuck using a 2h. So the 2h has me valuing crit vastly over mastery. I think there was one day where I was too lazy to re-gem and ran around with the 2h stacking mastery, and it was really awful :<
Can you shed any light for my situation? Im not sure really if Im making the proper decisions regarding my gems. I went full on mastery, should I be gemming for pure agi instead like yourself?
The mastery thing was when I was still dual wielding, but I coined an heroic thunderforged staff so I'm kind of stuck using a 2h. So the 2h has me valuing crit vastly over mastery. I think there was one day where I was too lazy to re-gem and ran around with the 2h stacking mastery, and it was really awful :<


I'm confused as to how you reached this idea that 2h has a different stat priority than dual wielding. As far as I'm aware, the only mechanical difference is in the way that Dancing Steel would proc (which is what gives the bonus to DW) and that haste might increase the value of 2h AAs by slightly less. There is no game mechanic I'm aware of that makes 1% crit and more or less of a relative DPS change than 600 mastery rating. Where are you getting this information?
The mastery thing was when I was still dual wielding, but I coined an heroic thunderforged staff so I'm kind of stuck using a 2h. So the 2h has me valuing crit vastly over mastery. I think there was one day where I was too lazy to re-gem and ran around with the 2h stacking mastery, and it was really awful :<


I'm confused as to how you reached this idea that 2h has a different stat priority than dual wielding. As far as I'm aware, the only mechanical difference is in the way that Dancing Steel would proc (which is what gives the bonus to DW) and that haste might increase the value of 2h AAs by slightly less. There is no game mechanic I'm aware of that makes 1% crit and more or less of a relative DPS change than 600 mastery rating. Where are you getting this information?

Through the magic of Simulationcraft. Way of the Monk also factors in (higher auto attack damage while dual wielding, faster attack speed while using a 2h weapon)

Funnily enough if you look at things in a patchwerk scenario Haste out values every other stat in a perfect world scenario. In terms of game mechanics, take a look at Tiger Strikes (You have a 8% chance to gain Tiger Strikes when you autoattack, increasing your attack speed by 50% and causing your next 4 autoattacks to cause an extra attack.), this is a mechanic that boosts the value of both Haste and Crit for us, and due to the fact that we can't have a full uptime on a 10 stacked Tigereye brew, those 2 stats will affect said mechanic more than Mastery can, due to the fact that haste increases your likelihood to proc more strikes, and that said strikes can crit (dang!).

Make sense? Kind of just firing this off while I take a break from writing a paper (hnnnng so much hate)
I'm almost positive that you used either an outdated version of Simcraft or that the current version has a bug in it somewhere. There is no logical reason why a change in the formation of auto attack damage should affect crit or mastery, only haste.

http://elitistjerks.com/f99/t131848-ww_5_2_enter_fist/p30/#post2266979

Further searching shows this post made a week ago which suggests that there may be something wrong with Simcraft. I'll have to do some digging to see if there's something specifically wrong with Simcraft, but for now let's just use a simple proof to disprove the idea that the stat priority would change between DW and 2H.

First, we'll demonstrate that Crit and Mastery both enact percentage damage increases in roughly the same way.

Example: You do 100k DPS with 0% Crit chance and TEB is at 0% per stack.

If you add 1% Crit chance, due to the fact that WW has no mechanics that interact with crit, it will in effect be a 1% damage increase, bringing you to 101k DPS. Placement of specific attacks, which ones crit and which do not, is merely an exercise in RNG and has no relevancy to how valuable 1% crit is.

If you add 1% TEB damage, what determines the percentage damage increase is just a factor of uptime. If it has 100% uptime, it's a 1% damage increase. If you use it more sparingly, say at 50% uptime, the stacking nature of TEB would mean that it's giving 2% every time it is up. In this scenario, when damage happens does impact the performance of mastery. However, due to the fact that we control when TEB is used as opposed to procs or random crits, this can only possibly help mastery's value, never hurt it.

Conclusion: Crit is a flat damage increase, Mastery can either be used with 100% uptime to MAKE it a flat damage increase like crit, or you can utilize it strategically to apply that percentage in higher concentrations for higher DPS phases. Mastery will never devalue due to damage patterns.

Secondly, we apply this knowledge of how the stats work to damage patterns of DW vs 2h.

Example 2: You do 100k DPS with 0% Crit chance and TEB is at 0% per stack. You are Dual-Wielding equal 100 ilvl weapons. No procs exist other than Tiger Strikes, which has a 20% uptime and increases damage by 50% while up.

1% Crit will increase total damage output by 1%, as per above. 1% Mastery can either be used with 100% uptime, or it can be strategically used to match the 20% uptime of Tiger Strikes. Applying mastery perfectly will result in a 1.1% overall damage increase rather than 1%.

Example 3: You do 100k DPS with 0% Crit chance and TEB is at 0% per stack. You are using a 100 ilvl 2h weapon. No procs exist other than Tiger Strikes, which has a 10% uptime and increases damage by 100% while up.

1% Crit will increase total damage output by 1%, as per above. 1% Mastery can either be used with 100% uptime, or it can be strategically used to match the 10% uptime of Tiger Strikes. Applying mastery perfectly will result in a 1.2% overall damage increase rather than 1%.

Conclusion: More rare Tiger Strikes procs that do comparatively more damage favor mastery more, but the value of crit remains the same.

Finally, we look at the real difference in Tiger Strikes patterns between DW and 2h.

Because the proc chance is static, and DW attacks more often than 2h, we can conclude that Tiger Strikes procs for DW are more frequent, but smaller. Thus when we apply our previous knowledge, mastery would be better for 2h than it would be for DW.

Conclusion: It is impossible for Mastery to drop below crit when going from DW to 2H. If anything, it would be the other way around or the stat priority to remain the same. There is a bug in Simcraft.
K I have two questions first is storm,earth, and fire a useless spell or are there anytimes to use it, saw you didn't mention it in the guide.

Second is for both 2 handed and duel wield simcraft is showing mastery>haste>crit once you get tot trinkets and rune of origin off of lei shen is this true?
K I have two questions first is storm,earth, and fire a useless spell or are there anytimes to use it, saw you didn't mention it in the guide.


No, it's great for cleave fights where the adds live a long time. Wind Lord, Jade Dogs, and Council in ToT all pretty much require you to use SEF for maximum DPS. I've also found it useful on fights like Horridon- I drop one clone on the boss during add phases to maintain some damage, particularly due to the debuff Horridon gets.

Second is for both 2 handed and duel wield simcraft is showing mastery>haste>crit once you get tot trinkets and rune of origin off of lei shen is this true?


Yes. Mastery will be kept slightly above Haste so that when RoO procs all of your stats become mastery and you can use Tigereye Brew for huge damage.
Im I missing something. I keep trying to run my toon thru simcraft, but it seem to be valuing str much higher than I feel like it should be. In fact its so high that mr.robot is telling me to re-enchant my gloves to str. Am I just using Simcraft wrong or is this something I should be considering?
Slight issue here. I have been reading the posts in this thread, and I have seen that each secondary stat will have different values at certain levels of gear. Currently Simcraft shows me at Agi>Haste>crit> mastery. However, from what I am reading in these posts. It seems off. Shouldn't I be valuing mastery more than crit? I do roughly 69-76k dps @ ilvl 490 and sometimes more depending on the fight. I have been looking around different sites like ElitestJerks,(They also value mastery higher than crit now), This thread , and looking at other monk set ups. I know my gear is slightly screwed up due to the 522 trinket with hit, and a lot of my gear also has hit , so I am WAY over hit cap at this point. What also might be contributing to this is that I am so used to being roughly top 3 in damage charts and now I run roughly around #6. I used to roll a Pally back in cata and I just might be too used to burst dmg and such. Any help would be great. Thanks.
Actually 76k seems a bit low for that level, though a good reason for it is due to the RF weapons. But besides the point. Both EJ's thread and MMO-C's thread both updated their stat priorities for non-T15 gear to go Agi > haste until you feel comfortable with energy regen > Crit > Mastery. I know for me personally I was one of those that tried out a mastery stacking build once 5.2 came out and I was lacking in dps like mad. Once SimulationCraft updated with a few key changes, I rechecked and it was saying Crit > Mastery. Once switched over, I saw a NOTICEABLE JUMP in my dps due to the change. Even now, with half 522 gear (lacking my 4th T15 piece and RoR) it still is saying Crit > Mastery. Granted in my current gear, Mastery is starting to really pick up in value and even if I don't get either of those two items Mastery will even out and probably excede crit in the long run.

Here is the thing with Mastery, it's great for "Burst" dps but for sustained, you need quite a bit of crit to back it up. I know in my current setup, I'm looking at ~36% crit raid buffed, after reaching a haste cap I'm comfortable with (6776 haste rating or 13.33 energy regen with Ascension), before adding more Mastery to my gear. Right now it's only reforges but eventually I'll be looking at having not only Agi/Crit gems but also Agi/mastery gems at the same time in my gear. Crit is very back-loaded in that it is a constant dps, while Mastery is more of a Front Loaded.

Finally mastery really doesn't shine until either 4-piece T15 where we have a 10% chance to generate a stack of TeB from Chi-generating abilities. Or when we get Rune of Re-Origination; Raid finder will need to wait another 2 1/2 weeks before that is available to them. With rune, it will not be unheard of for people to have 10% Mastery while the proc is up. If you have a 10-stack when you pop it, your talking about 100% increase damage for 15 seconds.
Hi Endangered. I'm 511 at the moment gear wise. I am having problems with my reforge. I followed what you said but another monk told me I should be going either;

Mastery>Haste

or

Haste (to a breakpoint)>mastery

After hit/exp soft cap that is, and so I did. I tried both and it was 10-13k dps higher then the Haste>Crit. I don't know what to believe now. Can you help me out with this?
I'm almost positive that you used either an outdated version of Simcraft or that the current version has a bug in it somewhere. There is no logical reason why a change in the formation of auto attack damage should affect crit or mastery, only haste.

http://elitistjerks.com/f99/t131848-ww_5_2_enter_fist/p30/#post2266979

Further searching shows this post made a week ago which suggests that there may be something wrong with Simcraft. I'll have to do some digging to see if there's something specifically wrong with Simcraft, but for now let's just use a simple proof to disprove the idea that the stat priority would change between DW and 2H.

First, we'll demonstrate that Crit and Mastery both enact percentage damage increases in roughly the same way.

Example: You do 100k DPS with 0% Crit chance and TEB is at 0% per stack.

If you add 1% Crit chance, due to the fact that WW has no mechanics that interact with crit, it will in effect be a 1% damage increase, bringing you to 101k DPS. Placement of specific attacks, which ones crit and which do not, is merely an exercise in RNG and has no relevancy to how valuable 1% crit is.

If you add 1% TEB damage, what determines the percentage damage increase is just a factor of uptime. If it has 100% uptime, it's a 1% damage increase. If you use it more sparingly, say at 50% uptime, the stacking nature of TEB would mean that it's giving 2% every time it is up. In this scenario, when damage happens does impact the performance of mastery. However, due to the fact that we control when TEB is used as opposed to procs or random crits, this can only possibly help mastery's value, never hurt it.

Conclusion: Crit is a flat damage increase, Mastery can either be used with 100% uptime to MAKE it a flat damage increase like crit, or you can utilize it strategically to apply that percentage in higher concentrations for higher DPS phases. Mastery will never devalue due to damage patterns.

Secondly, we apply this knowledge of how the stats work to damage patterns of DW vs 2h.

Example 2: You do 100k DPS with 0% Crit chance and TEB is at 0% per stack. You are Dual-Wielding equal 100 ilvl weapons. No procs exist other than Tiger Strikes, which has a 20% uptime and increases damage by 50% while up.

1% Crit will increase total damage output by 1%, as per above. 1% Mastery can either be used with 100% uptime, or it can be strategically used to match the 20% uptime of Tiger Strikes. Applying mastery perfectly will result in a 1.1% overall damage increase rather than 1%.

Example 3: You do 100k DPS with 0% Crit chance and TEB is at 0% per stack. You are using a 100 ilvl 2h weapon. No procs exist other than Tiger Strikes, which has a 10% uptime and increases damage by 100% while up.

1% Crit will increase total damage output by 1%, as per above. 1% Mastery can either be used with 100% uptime, or it can be strategically used to match the 10% uptime of Tiger Strikes. Applying mastery perfectly will result in a 1.2% overall damage increase rather than 1%.

Conclusion: More rare Tiger Strikes procs that do comparatively more damage favor mastery more, but the value of crit remains the same.

Finally, we look at the real difference in Tiger Strikes patterns between DW and 2h.

Because the proc chance is static, and DW attacks more often than 2h, we can conclude that Tiger Strikes procs for DW are more frequent, but smaller. Thus when we apply our previous knowledge, mastery would be better for 2h than it would be for DW.

Conclusion: It is impossible for Mastery to drop below crit when going from DW to 2H. If anything, it would be the other way around or the stat priority to remain the same. There is a bug in Simcraft.


I dont really enjoy reading so Im going to say no.
I'm almost positive that you used either an outdated version of Simcraft or that the current version has a bug in it somewhere. There is no logical reason why a change in the formation of auto attack damage should affect crit or mastery, only haste.

http://elitistjerks.com/f99/t131848-ww_5_2_enter_fist/p30/#post2266979

Further searching shows this post made a week ago which suggests that there may be something wrong with Simcraft. I'll have to do some digging to see if there's something specifically wrong with Simcraft, but for now let's just use a simple proof to disprove the idea that the stat priority would change between DW and 2H.

First, we'll demonstrate that Crit and Mastery both enact percentage damage increases in roughly the same way.

Example: You do 100k DPS with 0% Crit chance and TEB is at 0% per stack.

If you add 1% Crit chance, due to the fact that WW has no mechanics that interact with crit, it will in effect be a 1% damage increase, bringing you to 101k DPS. Placement of specific attacks, which ones crit and which do not, is merely an exercise in RNG and has no relevancy to how valuable 1% crit is.

If you add 1% TEB damage, what determines the percentage damage increase is just a factor of uptime. If it has 100% uptime, it's a 1% damage increase. If you use it more sparingly, say at 50% uptime, the stacking nature of TEB would mean that it's giving 2% every time it is up. In this scenario, when damage happens does impact the performance of mastery. However, due to the fact that we control when TEB is used as opposed to procs or random crits, this can only possibly help mastery's value, never hurt it.

Conclusion: Crit is a flat damage increase, Mastery can either be used with 100% uptime to MAKE it a flat damage increase like crit, or you can utilize it strategically to apply that percentage in higher concentrations for higher DPS phases. Mastery will never devalue due to damage patterns.

Secondly, we apply this knowledge of how the stats work to damage patterns of DW vs 2h.

Example 2: You do 100k DPS with 0% Crit chance and TEB is at 0% per stack. You are Dual-Wielding equal 100 ilvl weapons. No procs exist other than Tiger Strikes, which has a 20% uptime and increases damage by 50% while up.

1% Crit will increase total damage output by 1%, as per above. 1% Mastery can either be used with 100% uptime, or it can be strategically used to match the 20% uptime of Tiger Strikes. Applying mastery perfectly will result in a 1.1% overall damage increase rather than 1%.

Example 3: You do 100k DPS with 0% Crit chance and TEB is at 0% per stack. You are using a 100 ilvl 2h weapon. No procs exist other than Tiger Strikes, which has a 10% uptime and increases damage by 100% while up.

1% Crit will increase total damage output by 1%, as per above. 1% Mastery can either be used with 100% uptime, or it can be strategically used to match the 10% uptime of Tiger Strikes. Applying mastery perfectly will result in a 1.2% overall damage increase rather than 1%.

Conclusion: More rare Tiger Strikes procs that do comparatively more damage favor mastery more, but the value of crit remains the same.

Finally, we look at the real difference in Tiger Strikes patterns between DW and 2h.

Because the proc chance is static, and DW attacks more often than 2h, we can conclude that Tiger Strikes procs for DW are more frequent, but smaller. Thus when we apply our previous knowledge, mastery would be better for 2h than it would be for DW.

Conclusion: It is impossible for Mastery to drop below crit when going from DW to 2H. If anything, it would be the other way around or the stat priority to remain the same. There is a bug in Simcraft.


tl;dr butthurt
Actually 76k seems a bit low for that level, though a good reason for it is due to the RF weapons. But besides the point. Both EJ's thread and MMO-C's thread both updated their stat priorities for non-T15 gear to go Agi > haste until you feel comfortable with energy regen > Crit > Mastery. I know for me personally I was one of those that tried out a mastery stacking build once 5.2 came out and I was lacking in dps like mad. Once SimulationCraft updated with a few key changes, I rechecked and it was saying Crit > Mastery. Once switched over, I saw a NOTICEABLE JUMP in my dps due to the change. Even now, with half 522 gear (lacking my 4th T15 piece and RoR) it still is saying Crit > Mastery. Granted in my current gear, Mastery is starting to really pick up in value and even if I don't get either of those two items Mastery will even out and probably excede crit in the long run.

Here is the thing with Mastery, it's great for "Burst" dps but for sustained, you need quite a bit of crit to back it up. I know in my current setup, I'm looking at ~36% crit raid buffed, after reaching a haste cap I'm comfortable with (6776 haste rating or 13.33 energy regen with Ascension), before adding more Mastery to my gear. Right now it's only reforges but eventually I'll be looking at having not only Agi/Crit gems but also Agi/mastery gems at the same time in my gear. Crit is very back-loaded in that it is a constant dps, while Mastery is more of a Front Loaded.

Finally mastery really doesn't shine until either 4-piece T15 where we have a 10% chance to generate a stack of TeB from Chi-generating abilities. Or when we get Rune of Re-Origination; Raid finder will need to wait another 2 1/2 weeks before that is available to them. With rune, it will not be unheard of for people to have 10% Mastery while the proc is up. If you have a 10-stack when you pop it, your talking about 100% increase damage for 15 seconds.


Thanks for the input, that makes more sense to me now.
Great guide.
Great guide thanks!

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