Thoughts on Inquisition? Go? Stay? Change?

Paladin
01/16/2013 09:03 PMPosted by Tsura
I did, in fact, raid all of Wrath. The quote that I was replying to was about Cata's Ret systems, not Wraths.


Obviously not on that toon, which is from where I drew my assumption. Did you play much Ret in Wrath? My opinion, that's the worst state Ret has ever been in as far as involvement goes - but I can't argue with the damage we had back then. And my response was still pertinent, since Cata Ret was based on solving numerous issues with Wrath Ret - specifically the severe lack of complexity and skill.

01/16/2013 09:03 PMPosted by Tsura
Also, if you consider keeping up a 30-second maintenance buff as complexity or skill and not a trivial annoyance, I cannot agree with you on that one.


The fact is, though, that it does add complexity and require skill - else why would so many people fail at it? I'm not saying it require a lot of skill or adds a ton of complexity, but it makes things far from the mindless button-mashing of Wrath Ret. It serves its intended purpose of rewarding players for making optimal use of their rotations and resources. I think the best thing that could be done to it has been done, and that was adding the crit bonus to it and the glyph because it's no longer quite as punishing to those players unable to effectively manage the buff and/or their resources.
I've never really played a rogue or druid, so my only real point of comparison can be my Frost DK. I feel that the two share certain similarities; both have a DoT that is refreshed during the normal rotation and a second buff/debuff that requires some maintenance.

For Ret this would be the passive stacking Censure and the slightly more active maintenance of Inquisition. For Frost, the passive stacking Frost Fever and the slightly more active maintenance of Blood Plague.

The major disparity between the two is how our maintained buff/debuff is... well, maintained. With how my Frost DK is specced I have three options of how to maintain Blood Plague (Outbreak, Unholy Blight and Plague Strike). With some care, it is easy to "waste" a minimal amount of runes maintaining Blood Plague allowing me to maximize dps and rewards me for being aware of the abilities cooldowns.

Ret on the other hand, only has the option to expend three holy power once every approximately thirty seconds to help bolster our damage. It doesn't feel very inventive, it costs us immediate damage and just seems like it was an attempt to change our rotation and satisfy those who wanted a buff to sustained damage.

This isn't to say that I want more buttons to push that instantly apply censure to everything within 10 yards and makes Inquisition laughably easy to maintain, but a little more variety could be nice. Inquisition is a powerful buff that we should be happy to have, but it needs to feel a bit more involved.

I don't even want to open the can of worms that is how easy it is spread diseases as a DK compared to censure, but I feel that having some class specialization (Cleave vs Single Target damage) is an overall good thing, if balanced properly.
Imo, we already have enough to deal with during our rotation, situational awareness, and using our utility at the right times on the right people without needing to keep glancing at the addons so we know when to hit our don't suck button - especially in pvp.
It was a huge turn off for leveling this Pally, but once you get into fights that last longer than 30 seconds (once you're done questing) it's not that bad.

I always loved the idea (not mine) to have it refresh on a killing blow of a player or a leveled mob.
I don't mind Inquisition and have no trouble keeping the buff rolling. I think it should last 2 or 3mins, just like battle shout or horn of winter. I think it would help our sustained damage by only having to refresh it every 2 or 3mins. At the same time, whatever, I don't think they will change it or get rid of it.
01/17/2013 10:06 AMPosted by Lughnasadh
Imo, we already have enough to deal with during our rotation, situational awareness, and using our utility at the right times on the right people without needing to keep glancing at the addons so we know when to hit our don't suck button - especially in pvp.


This. I completely agree. I believe the current ret paladin already has a comprehensive enough toolkit to be better off without a maintenance-buff.
01/16/2013 09:18 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
Obviously not on that toon, which is from where I drew my assumption. Did you play much Ret in Wrath? My opinion, that's the worst state Ret has ever been in as far as involvement goes - but I can't argue with the damage we had back then. And my response was still pertinent, since Cata Ret was based on solving numerous issues with Wrath Ret - specifically the severe lack of complexity and skill.


I did play quite a bit of Ret in Wrath, but, as you say, I did not raid that much with it. That being said, I agree that it was a skill-less play style. Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing that we should go back to Wrath's play style at all. I like the current resource-building system and proc-based systems we have in place currently.

The fact is, though, that it does add complexity and require skill - else why would so many people fail at it? I'm not saying it require a lot of skill or adds a ton of complexity, but it makes things far from the mindless button-mashing of Wrath Ret. It serves its intended purpose of rewarding players for making optimal use of their rotations and resources. I think the best thing that could be done to it has been done, and that was adding the crit bonus to it and the glyph because it's no longer quite as punishing to those players unable to effectively manage the buff and/or their resources.


This is where I think I should clarify my stance. Yes, it does require a slight degree of skill to keep up a 30-second maintenance-buff. However, I disagree that adding Inquisition was the best course of action. Adding in the resource-building aspect (Holy Power) and proc-based aspects into Ret's play style was a fantastic move in my opinion. However Inquisition itself as a maintenance-buff is bad design. I do not believe that it is something needed in today's MOP Ret Paladin. I think that the current ret paladin has such a large toolkit and robust play style that it does not have any further need of the "skill-measuring stick" that is Inquisition.
I love the buff, and I don't mind having to cast it. What bugs me is having to refresh it. Or at least, having to refresh it so frequently. I would love if they made it so its duration was refreshed when we hit with Templar's Verdict. That way we would still have that ramp up in our damage that they insisted all the classes have (yet few have kept) but would no longer have that dead drop if we don't recast it. So we would be able to sustain our max damage so long as we are dealing damage. If we go out of combat for a while or become an emergenct healer for a while, we have to go through the ramp up process again. Simple!

Or at the very least I'd love a glyph like feral druids have for savage roar. So we could cast Inq for a short duration at no cost.

Likely because the problem is lazy players, not Inquisition itself. Blizzard doesn't have a hotfix for that.


I keep Inquisition up, no problem. It's easy. Doesn't mean I find it fun, though.
Keeping inq up does not take skill. PVE, it's just part of the rotation. PVP, doesn't take skill to hit the button, it's just whether you want to waste a gcd on casting it or getting the opponent's last bit of life down with TV, exo, prism, etc. Take it off a gcd please, if we gotta keep it. Most of the posts I've seen on this pertain to pvp. In PVE it's a simple no brainer that a simpleton should be able to handle.

Seemed more skillish in cata. Guess we are destined to have some type of seal/judge from back in vanilla.

Probably as good a button to push as any in pve.
Have it last five minutes.
Remove it from gcd, make inq last a min, and make one of our abilities increase the duration by a percent of the remaining duration.

One or all of these changes would make me hate inq less.
01/19/2013 06:29 AMPosted by Icandygriz
Remove it from gcd,

Alright, but SnD and Sroar would also need to be off gcd, gotta make it fair

01/19/2013 06:29 AMPosted by Icandygriz
make inq last a min,

Alright, but Light's Hammer and Execution Sentence CD would have to be change. I wouldn't want to force myself to have to refresh Inq and keep my CDs on CD. Also will have to make SnD a minute and 12 seconds duration and Sroar a minute and 24 seconds to keep the other talents up to par

01/19/2013 06:29 AMPosted by Icandygriz
make one of our abilities increase the duration by a percent of the remaining duration.

If im only going to have to hit the spell once while in combat, they should just make it a passive buff, I can't be asked to hit some spell I'd only use once
Stop fooling yourself that managing a tedious maintenance buff makes you in any way good or better then the rest. We all have addons that track it and refresh when needed inside a 4-5sec window. Chances are if a player isn't tracking inquisition or using Inq they aren't dumping with TV either. Way to penalize an entire spec for a few clueless players. In wrath we did not have a resource system it was simply fcfs , so no way we cant go back to that old 1 string macro with resources in place.
01/19/2013 10:34 AMPosted by Hlypowahalp
Stop fooling yourself that managing a tedious maintenance buff makes you in any way good or better then the rest. We all have addons that track it and refresh when needed inside a 4-5sec window. Chances are if a player isn't tracking inquisition or using Inq they aren't dumping with TV either. Way to penalize an entire spec for a few clueless players. In wrath we did not have a resource system it was simply fcfs , so no way we cant go back to that old 1 string macro with resources in place.


This is ultimately true. Inquisition is something that may have been a patch-work solution for some of Wrath's problems, but not for today's Ret.

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