Countdown queues are the problem

Battlegrounds
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What exactly am i "grasping" at? A portion of the roster of every normal BG queue is intended to be random.And there are bonus rewards involved for being confined to that... the more random the more reward.


You: "You have a random component!"

Me: "They have a random component too!"

You: "Your random is more random then their random is!"

Me: "t(-_-t)"
01/16/2013 01:01 PMPosted by Splixer
Yes - but only for you -----> not for them.


01/16/2013 12:57 PMPosted by Warglaive
Yes, but not to the same extent for both of you


Do I need to say more

I make an example to humor you and you still grasp a straws


i don't think he was grasping at straws really. i
think it pretty much sums up the desire of these
anti-premade types. they want the experience to
be the exact same for everybody. if you follow this
line of thinking presented by their argument to a
conclusion it will end up with a no win - no loss
situation where everybody receives a trophy.

they'll hide their agenda with things like 'go do rated
because that is where you big bad meanie head premade
pub stompers are supposed to be' but it all comes back
to their desire to remove any sort of violence from the
game and their easiest targets right now are those that
premade in normals. it's a moral supremacy thing.

Cheers.
Pleb, the big bad meanie head idiot AV groupie.
01/16/2013 01:06 PMPosted by Esclamayshun
There's a whole lot of straw grasping going on, but it's definitely not on Warglaive's side.


Naaaah, this is what happens when I grasp at straws.

"Why do you play rogue?"

01/11/2012 08:05 PMPosted by Esclamayshun
Least likely to get nerfed.


Sorry, I just had to do it. :P

Random team random map - most currency reward.Random team specific map - less currency reward.Organized team specific map - NO currency reward.Organized team random map - Is that even available? I dont do wargames either... but NO reward.


You forgot the CtA variable, which pretty much destroys this, seeing that CtA is what groups do the most in OQ.

Plus having a 5 man premade makes your group pretty darn organized in itself.
i don't think he was grasping at straws really. i think it pretty much sums up the desire of theseanti-premade types. they want the experience tobe the exact same for everybody. if you follow this line of thinking presented by their argument to a conclusion it will end up with a no win - no loss situation where everybody receives a trophy.they'll hide their agenda with things like 'go do rated because that is where you big bad meanie head premade pub stompers are supposed to be' but it all comes back to their desire to remove any sort of violence from the game and their easiest targets right now are those that premade in normals. it's a moral supremacy thing.


Yeah, I guess you're right.

We're all big bad meanies who want to be on top Pleb.

Wonder which one of us is next on the chopping blocks.
A fully geared malevolent player is going to one-shot someone in quest greens, completely negating the "more equal aspect" that is trying to be provided.Unless they want to shorten the gear gap, or provide ilvl brackets, there is no equality in randoms.


This is absolutely true, but it's a separate issue from this thread. Right now there's simply too large a gap between honor gear and conquest gear. We've been told there will be a blog later this week that will adress this issue for 5.2.

The subject of this thread is if premade groups of more than 5 people should be allowed in non-rated battlegrounds. Blizzard has posted that it's not intended, but left in game a matchmaking system that allows it.
Pleb, the only thing I am truly arguing is that it is blatantly clear more than 5 is not intended. Undeniably.

I am not anti-premade, only anti-ignorance.

They flat out said it isnt what they want for the game. But until they DO something, all it is is talk. That's the only thing you should be arguing - not how valid the complaint. Or why you're "just" in circumventing it.

IT IS UNINTENDED. Beyond that... whatever.
01/16/2013 01:20 PMPosted by Splixer
You forgot the CtA variable, which pretty much destroys this, seeing that CtA is what groups do the most in OQ.

Did i?
01/16/2013 12:57 PMPosted by Warglaive
If you manually change to queue into a specific map you FORFEIT some of those rewards. Save for CTA.

Repeating everything in every post makes for cluttered forums and cloudy, near unreadable walls of text.

I do it more often than most and you make it pretty obivous why...

01/16/2013 01:20 PMPosted by Splixer
Plus having a 5 man premade makes your group pretty darn organized in itself.


Indeed. BUT is also within the ruleset and intention of the system to which the rewards are attributed.

They allowed everyone this much, yet you go around that parameter to group with more. Same reward.

edit-
01/16/2013 01:22 PMPosted by Squeak
Blizzard has posted that it's not intended, but left in game a matchmaking system that allows it.

^ this is the topic of the thread. It's a pretty legitimate complaint and reasonable to make it.
01/16/2013 01:31 PMPosted by Warglaive
Did i?


Yes, you did.

You mentioned it like 5 posts back, but you forgot to plug it into your little BG- currency system.
Repeating everything in every post makes for cluttered forums and cloudy, near unreadable walls of text. I do it more often than most and you make it pretty obivous why...


This is understandable when simply talking. However, when explaining some complex system you've concocted in your head, you can't leave important things out.
01/16/2013 01:37 PMPosted by Splixer
This is understandable when simply talking. However, when explaining some complex system you've concocted in your head, you can't leave important things out.

Did it change the reward? Or the system? Or the concept? There is no "organized team CtA map" option.

There is not a CtA for wargames. Is there?

That's the only venue currently intending an organized roster outside of RBG. PvP is the only reward.

Seems to me you're grasping at straws....
Pleb, the only thing I am truly arguing is that is is blatantly clear more than 5 is not intended. Undeniably.

I am not anti-premade, only anti-ignorance.

They flat out said it isnt what they want for the game. But until they DO something, all it is is talk. That's the only thing you should be arguing - not how valid the complaint. Or why you're "just" in circumventing it.

IT IS UNINTENDED. Beyond that... whatever.


not circumventing anything. not once since patch 5.1
have i been able to queue a battleground with more
than four others in my group. this option doesn't exist.

if you're anti-ignorance then you should be able to see
clear that gimping battleground play to all but ensure
that the experience they're giving you is a battlefield full
of mindless first person shooters, and bots, instead of the
ability to coordinate with everybody on your team in a
meaningful way. is this the hailed spirit of the experience?

just because patch 5.1 broke things that made bg play
enjoyable doesn't mean you need to bandwagon it.

it was a foul thing to do and should be rallied against.

three, two, one... not a circumvention, but a prevention
of the ill conceived spirit of the experience they desire.

Cheers.
Pleb.
not circumventing anything. not once since patch 5.1have i been able to queue a battleground with morethan four others in my group. this option doesn't exist.

But have you been able to ENTER them with more than 4 others?

Arguing that you "cant queue that way" while still arriving at the same destination is weak and beneath you.
It is unintended. That itself is circumvention - of their "ill conceived spirit" of the system. Countdowns do so.

Dont pretend otherwise.

Basically dont make excuses for it. Simply state, "Until they change it I'm going to do it, wrong or right".
because that's all the excuses are actually saying for you... and it's not very flattering.
01/16/2013 01:49 PMPosted by Warglaive
not circumventing anything. not once since patch 5.1have i been able to queue a battleground with morethan four others in my group. this option doesn't exist.

But have you been able to ENTER them with more than 4 others?

Agruing that you "cant queue that way" while still arriving at the same destination is weak and beneath you.
It is unintended.


perhaps you didn't read the rest of the post, and
if you did, didn't fully understand it. that's okay.

there is nothing wrong with premades in normals.

to bandwagon a bad patch doesn't make it right.

countdowns are not a cheat.

rollback the errors of patch 5.1. /signed

Cheers.
Pleb.

that's part of the problem with moral high grounding. doesn't
matter how wrong or bad a law, rule, patch, etc. is you'll wrap
yourself in it at the expense of that which is right or good.
patch 5.1 was a mistake.
That's better, friend. Stating as opinion and not contrary to fact. I follow you, i dont agree - but i follow.
01/16/2013 02:02 PMPosted by Warglaive
That's better, friend. Stating as opinion and not contrary to fact. I follow you, i dont agree - but i follow.


right. facts, opinions, yeah yeah, i get it. key words like
'think', 'believe', or statements towards that, opinions.
stats, numbers, etc., fact. but what about solo or small
group (5) queuing from places like horde sargaras, where
a win or even coordinated team play is a blue moon event?
fact, or opinion? if you're horde on sargaras it's a fact. if
you're queuing this way from a somewhere else that sees
better horde effort, it's an opinion. so what do you do?

why should i, or any player for that matter, be hobbled in his
battleground experience? the premade is a good thing.

you might say that bg's are xrlm and... yes, true, but it
remains that when i queue solo from sargaras i see the
same realms on my team over and over again and they
are notorious for lack of teamwork and objectives.

so, what do you do? there's nothing wrong with the solo
queue but there is something horribly wrong when you're
forced to endure those that derp the battleground. a group
of five can, and do, make a difference but it's more than
just that. five should not be forced to put in all the effort
towards a win while the rest of your team is ignoring that
particular battlegrounds' win objectives. they do nothing
and reap the benefits of your efforts. so, what to do?

patch 5.1 a horrible thing, fact, opinion? you will say it's
an opinion, i say it will bear itself out as fact. premades
are not the problem. never have been.

Cheers.
Pleb.
why should i, or any player for that matter, be hobbled in his battleground experience?


I believe it's due to the fact that you get rewarded more for overcoming that. Random team, random map.
The more random, the more reward. Save for CtA.

They very specifically stated that if it is only organized PvP you seek, then there are other alternatives. But they currently do not reward honor or conquest points - except for RBG. Which is a pretty apparent solution.

If you dont like RBG the way it is, then maybe your time would be better spent voicing your complaints about that instead of furiously attempting to legitify the current workaround to the clear intentions of this system.

They complain about this, you complain about that. Instead of you complaining about them complaining.
(everyone, not specifically you...)

Also perhaps focus more on this:
12/04/2012 03:37 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We're open to exploring the possibility of creating a pre-made queue for Battlegrounds, or improving the War Game system in some way.


I'd personally support both of those ideas and their intention.
01/16/2013 02:53 PMPosted by Aurellian
So, how is this bad again?


I quote Dax because it's all i can do. And since you STILL seem to be confused as to their reasoning.

12/04/2012 02:08 PMPosted by Daxxarri
The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP

^ whether 100% accurate or not i cannot guarantee. But that is WHY. From THEIR mouths. To YOUR ears.

So ask again in 2 more pages. This will still be here.
01/16/2013 03:03 PMPosted by Warglaive
They very specifically stated that if it is only organized PvP you seek, then there are other alternatives.


they are very specifically wrong. rbg's are not the
sole domain of organized battleground efforts.

also, i don't care about ratings.

Cheers.

"We're open to exploring the possibility of creating..."
read this. read it again. what is it really saying?
They very specifically stated that if it is only organized PvP you seek, then there are other alternatives.


they are very specifically wrong. rbg's are not the
sole domain of organized battleground efforts.

They are the sole domain provided by Blizzard that offer rewards for groups larger than 5 though. Wargames are what you seek... except without reward. That's basically the crux of the whole discussion in a nutshell.

Reward. People are bending the reality of whats intended to get it... or they're just stompin pugs.

also, i don't care about ratings.

Cheers.

Ya, me neither. But i do care about integrity and how it makes me feel about myself. And the concept itself.
edit- not to mention the concept of fair play. I like it - even when i am not the party in question affected.

"We're open to exploring the possibility of creating..."
read this. read it again. what is it really saying?

I think he wants you to ask for 6+ vs 6+ organized system that isnt RBG but still offers the currency rewards.

Not to self-servedly redesign the current one yourselves.

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