Removing Flying Mounts Part II

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01/16/2013 02:10 PMPosted by Jaybur


No one ever said they are detrimental to gameplay, or they're being removed, or we hate flying mounts, or any of the other things people have inferred for no good reason. What I said was that experiencing a world directly from your character to the earth beneath it, and approaching questing content, is not served well by being able to lift off and set down wherever you like. In most cases we've relegated 'non-flying' to new characters experiencing an expansion for the first time, and then sometime later given them a way to give their alts flying in a quicker manner. In some cases, such as the Isle of Quel'danas back in BC, and now on the 5.2 Thunder King island, we've made a conscious effort to design a no-flying area to present that content in a different, and we believe, more intimate way. That's our job as game designers and world creators to define the restrictions and rules to create what we feel crafts the best experience. You can disagree with the restrictions and rules that define what World of Warcraft is, and we can have a conversation on the pros and cons (and certainly there are both), but let's be careful not to take things out of context and jump to extremes.


LOL. This whole 'flying going away' all started up because of an off-hand comment from GC on twitter. People constantly 'jump to extremes' in this community. :/

I still disagree with the decision of no flying in the new daily hub, but I will give it a chance before I make a final decision on whether I agree with it or not...from my personal enjoyment perspective. Although, I guess alot of that will have to do with if the dailies are enjoyable themselves or not.

We shall see.....


If you already have a problem with the idea of not being able to fly for an area that (by current standards of flight) is designed for ground mounts, you might as well forget the idea of possibly liking it. Not the quests mind you, but the idea that you can't fly. If you're already hooked on flight, and see no positive aspects of non-flight zones, you've made your stance on the matter.


LOL. This whole 'flying going away' all started up because of an off-hand comment from GC on twitter. People constantly 'jump to extremes' in this community. :/

I still disagree with the decision of no flying in the new daily hub, but I will give it a chance before I make a final decision on whether I agree with it or not...from my personal enjoyment perspective. Although, I guess alot of that will have to do with if the dailies are enjoyable themselves or not.

We shall see.....


If you already have a problem with the idea of not being able to fly for an area that (by current standards of flight) is designed for ground mounts, you might as well forget the idea of possibly liking it. Not the quests mind you, but the idea that you can't fly. If you're already hooked on flight, and see no positive aspects of non-flight zones, you've made your stance on the matter.


When flying mounts are still entirely optional this whole thing is moot.

What people are really annoyed with is being told by others how they should enjoy the game. I don't find 90% of even the latest quest content compelling and after the first sweep through I don't find the scenery as riveting as some of the rosy eyed people on the "no-flying" side.

Again it's optional so the real argument has nothing to do with how it's presented, the real point here is basically "have fun my way or the highway" It's an extreme and entirely emotion driven stance that everyone should be against.

I'm sitting here trying to think of wittier ways to say it but "It's optional...wth are we still talking about?" is about as good as I can come up with.
01/16/2013 04:39 PMPosted by Doofenshmirt
AOL isn't dead, I still use AIM all the time, and go figure, it works better than Yahoo Messenger :P


Oh, so you AIM and not AOL.
AIM being a free ad supported chat client (with less that 10% market share... Microsoft with Skype added in having about 70%).
AOL being a $30ish per month SaaS.


and yes, I do have an aol email account.
i wont be doing the dailies, i dont care how good the new items are. f that. and i will always have to be summoned to the raid. im not walking there....
01/16/2013 02:05 PMPosted by Bashiok
In spite of your firm belief that you feel flying mounts are detrimental to gameplay


No one ever said they are detrimental to gameplay, or they're being removed, or we hate flying mounts, or any of the other things people have inferred for no good reason. What I said was that experiencing a world directly from your character to the earth beneath it, and approaching questing content, is not served well by being able to lift off and set down wherever you like. In most cases we've relegated 'non-flying' to new characters experiencing an expansion for the first time, and then sometime later given them a way to give their alts flying in a quicker manner. In some cases, such as the Isle of Quel'danas back in BC, and now on the 5.2 Thunder King island, we've made a conscious effort to design a no-flying area to present that content in a different, and we believe, more intimate way. That's our job as game designers and world creators to define the restrictions and rules to create what we feel crafts the best experience. You can disagree with the restrictions and rules that define what World of Warcraft is, and we can have a conversation on the pros and cons (and certainly there are both), but let's be careful not to take things out of context and jump to extremes.
Can you start spending as much time making a conscious effort to make content that is based around FLYING characters, even though it may be more difficult?

It is very clear that there are atleast as many people who DESPISE travel by ground. The only reason that the "questing experience is better from the ground" is because that is the way you make it - so make it differently.
Can you start spending as much time making a conscious effort to make content that is based around FLYING characters, even though it may be more difficult?

It is very clear that there are atleast as many people who DESPISE travel by ground. The only reason that the "questing experience is better from the ground" is because that is the way you make it - so make it differently.


All of the level-cap content and locations (daily quests, hubs, etc.) are designed around the knowledge that you have a flying mount available.
It took me longer to level my mage then it did for my warrior, and I was not happy. I had to force myself to level because it was so extremely boring. I didnt feel this way in cataclysm OR wotlk, it didnt bother me so much and I didn't quit after an hour to go level an alt. I say that because being on the ground the entire time felt like a downgrade, I was weaker then I was previously, being just slow.. and boring.

I actually prefered to level my lower characters then I did my level 85, and all I could think about is how much it was going suck when I get up to 85 and have to level that character through MOP.

This isn't to say I dont like MOP, I liked the questing experience... the first time. After that its just one long repetition of things I already did. It was hard enough the second time, the 3rd time or 4th time I dont think ill do it. Dailies are somewhat manageable due to being short and I took them in small chunks, my mage will be ok because of the reputation thing, but the days of leveling was almost unbearable.

I am not sure if flying will make it easier or for people like me to want to level alts more, but it will be a step in the right direction.
Can you start spending as much time making a conscious effort to make content that is based around FLYING characters, even though it may be more difficult?

It is very clear that there are atleast as many people who DESPISE travel by ground. The only reason that the "questing experience is better from the ground" is because that is the way you make it - so make it differently.


All of the level-cap content and locations (daily quests, hubs, etc.) are designed around the knowledge that you have a flying mount available.


So will the new area be small-ish but packed with quests as Isle of Quel'danas was? Because that was easily my favorite daily zone.

Hopefully the raid entrance is right near the quest area as well. It would be nice to have raid door pvp again.
I asked this befiore and the question was ignored so I'll ask again: why is "to promote world pvp" an issue when PVE realms are not interested in "world pvp"?

Why is this now about "raid door pvp" and 'world pvp" and pvp in general?

There are PVE server players, a lot of us, who are not interested in pvp at all, and as was asked when MOP was being organised, why is the idea of pvp now being forced on players who dont like it and rolled on PVE servers so they didnt have to do it?

Has Blizzard changed its stance and is now in the process of FORCING pvp on PVE players?

You said it, Bashiok "To help promote world pvp"....and at the same time did not address PVE server player preference.

I'd like clarification on this please? is Blizzard now in the process of reorienting things to focus on pvp whether players want it or not? Is this one of the reasons this no fly is being put in place?+

Is this to cater to pvp'ers?

May I please get an answer.

Thank you.
The #1 reason SWTOR was unbearable for me was lack of flying mounts... absolutely terrible way to get you to "experience the world".

If you want me to experience certain mobs or pieces of the world, just give me an objective to complete around them... random aggro while running to a destination is not compelling game play.


The reason TOR was unbearable was not lack of flying mounts, it was lack of engaging content.

The guy who did the "you can't be a virgin again" post was bang on the money, most of us have been around long enough (vanilla beta on the original incarnation of this character) that there is no sense of wonder anymore.

eg. the first time standing on the Khaz Modan dam was amazing. It had a sense of size and scale that you didn't see much back in games those days. Arriving in MoP was all "where's the quest guy, let's go!".

MoP had some cool moments but most of it was point to point laundry list (gotta make sure that there is no possible way for a person to get lost between hubs). Being on the ground didn't force any interaction with other players (did 85-90 new content with only two groups and both of those were LFG dungeon runs). The effective removal of any truly threatening elite mobs that didn't have a mechanic added to work around their "elite" status means there is no reason to find a group.

The content is not engaging. Here or in TOR. So we want the fastest possible way to get around that problem (which currently is flying mounts) because we're having so much damn fun that we can't wait for it to be over...

Although I find it a bit rich that flightless content is extolled as a good thing by a blue when you consider the proliferation of flight points, eg. Alliance FP's in Kalimdor

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090826204551/wowwiki/images/thumb/d/d6/TAXIMAP1.png/430px-TAXIMAP1.png (19)

vs

http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/8/86/AKalimdorCat.jpg (43)

Or the number of times in MoP you get a free flight to the next hub to alleviate actually traveling there. So the content is streamlined but still tedious. A-mazing...
Can you start spending as much time making a conscious effort to make content that is based around FLYING characters, even though it may be more difficult?

It is very clear that there are atleast as many people who DESPISE travel by ground. The only reason that the "questing experience is better from the ground" is because that is the way you make it - so make it differently.


All of the level-cap content and locations (daily quests, hubs, etc.) are designed around the knowledge that you have a flying mount available.
That's not the same thing.


All of the level-cap content and locations (daily quests, hubs, etc.) are designed around the knowledge that you have a flying mount available.


There is a difference between making content with a given knowledge, and making content which involves or is centered around given knowledge.
Can you start spending as much time making a conscious effort to make content that is based around FLYING characters, even though it may be more difficult?

It is very clear that there are atleast as many people who DESPISE travel by ground. The only reason that the "questing experience is better from the ground" is because that is the way you make it - so make it differently.


All of the level-cap content and locations (daily quests, hubs, etc.) are designed around the knowledge that you have a flying mount available.


and yet the new daily hub has it turned off? I don't feel wonderment or awe by not flying. i feel only frustration.
In spite of your firm belief that you feel flying mounts are detrimental to gameplay


No one ever said they are detrimental to gameplay, or they're being removed, or we hate flying mounts, or any of the other things people have inferred for no good reason. What I said was that experiencing a world directly from your character to the earth beneath it, and approaching questing content, is not served well by being able to lift off and set down wherever you like. In most cases we've relegated 'non-flying' to new characters experiencing an expansion for the first time, and then sometime later given them a way to give their alts flying in a quicker manner. In some cases, such as the Isle of Quel'danas back in BC, and now on the 5.2 Thunder King island, we've made a conscious effort to design a no-flying area to present that content in a different, and we believe, more intimate way. That's our job as game designers and world creators to define the restrictions and rules to create what we feel crafts the best experience. You can disagree with the restrictions and rules that define what World of Warcraft is, and we can have a conversation on the pros and cons (and certainly there are both), but let's be careful not to take things out of context and jump to extremes.


https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/280039411524182016

This is where it came from. And when GC says he doesnt like something, well, history can show that he has made drastic changes to things he doesnt like. i think that makes a lot of people nervous.
Snip


I would actually like to know this myself, when I joined back around patch 1.4 - 1.5 it was quiet clear that any PVP happened in either a BG or PVP server, and so I chose a PVE server to limit as much PVP as possible. If and when I do it, it is in a battle ground (Preferably AV) and no where else. Sure world PVP is fun when it occurs but the steps recently to almost ensure it happens on a PVE server is annoying and nauseating.

An achievement (What a long strange trip) that requires quiet a bit of forced PVP in order to get (and if you want that achievement yes it is forced PVP for a PVE mount). Guards that now flag you instantly if they TOUCH you, you don't have to hit them and back when I joined YOU had to attack the guard in order to flag or walk into a main city as it should still be on PVE servers. This is why I am an advocate for keeping PVP and PVE as far from one another as possible in regards to server play style.

If world PVP is to happen, let it happen "Naturally" instead of making areas that are almost going to end up a result of forced interaction. Just the other day I was ganked on a PVE server because a patrolling guard with a freakish agro range in Swamp of Sorrows ran a crazy distance to attack me, I flagged and a level 90 swooped in and killed me after I escaped the guard. It's very uncalled for, That kind of behavior should be reserved for PVP servers only.
Can you start spending as much time making a conscious effort to make content that is based around FLYING characters, even though it may be more difficult?

It is very clear that there are atleast as many people who DESPISE travel by ground. The only reason that the "questing experience is better from the ground" is because that is the way you make it - so make it differently.


All of the level-cap content and locations (daily quests, hubs, etc.) are designed around the knowledge that you have a flying mount available.


Then why is it still possible to die in places like the Seat of Knowledge and have no way to get back to your corpse?
Sorry Blizzard, but you are wrong this time. I can experience most of the game content with all its intimacy nicely with my flying mounts. To say that I am missing the intimacy is just plain dog doo. Nice try though.

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